F-14 landing characteristics on land bases behaviour problem/issue on the current FM.

Is it possible to aerobrake land the F-14? I've seen Iranian F-14 landing with aerobraking with nose up, and with full flaps plus spoilers deployed. As it is now, it is almost impossible to do aerobraking on land bases with an F-14.

Does the FM need more tweaking on this?

See the aerobraking on link below and skip to 3:10.

Is it possible to aerobrake land the F-14? I've seen Iranian F-14 landing with aerobraking with nose up, and with full flaps plus spoilers deployed. As it is now, it is almost impossible to do aerobraking on land bases with an F-14.

 

 

 

Does the FM need more tweaking on this?

 

 

 

 

See the aerobraking on link below and skip to 3:10.

 

 

 

FWIW, it is more effective to put the nose on the deck and program the stick full aft without lifting. The stabs are very effective in aerodynamic braking, and you can actually steer the aircraft with differential stick. It works in the sim as it did in the aircraft.

Aerobraking like you see in other aircraft models was prohibited by SOP as it was too easy to damage the burner cans on arresting gear cables, etc.

I never wanted to emulate an Iranian pilot...

FWIW, it is more effective to put the nose on the deck and program the stick full aft without lifting. The stabs are very effective in aerodynamic braking, and you can actually steer the aircraft with differential stick. It works in the sim as it did in the aircraft.

 

Aerobraking like you see in other aircraft models was prohibited by SOP as it was too easy to damage the burner cans on arresting gear cables, etc.

 

I never wanted to emulate an Iranian pilot...

I am not talking of the CORRECT landing procedure...

My question was, can it aerobrake or not? and if the landing FM needs a bit more tweaking.

You don't need to bring in the obvious hate coz its an Iranian pilot doing it...But it does not change the OBVIOUS FACT that he is able to do it.

Even Finnish pilots aerobrake on their hornets. But whatever SOP procedure says on the hornet is that its not recommended for aerobraking...still, the land based pilots do it.

There are even US Navy pilots disregarding procedure on F-14, TAKING OFF in MAX burner. There pics and vids of it too.

Aero braking is theoretically possible with any aircraft as long as the stabs are powerful enough to keep the nose up at speeds less than flight speed. This is possible but not SOP for the Tomcat; you can use the stabs as aero brakes once you've got all the wheels on the ground, you can even use them for directional control on the ground like Victory noted above. He's an actual F-14 pilot, he would know. The FM in this respect is highly unlikely to change unless Victory finds something new that we haven't already addressed.

Aero braking is theoretically possible with any aircraft as long as the stabs are powerful enough to keep the nose up at speeds less than flight speed. This is possible but not SOP for the Tomcat; you can use the stabs as aero brakes once you've got all the wheels on the ground, you can even use them for directional control on the ground like Victory noted above. He's an actual F-14 pilot, he would know. The FM in this respect is highly unlikely to change unless Victory finds something new that we haven't already addressed.

What I had meant was keeping the nose up...you know that aerobraking. I did post the vid of Iranian air force pilots ( They are not Navy pilots so they may not follow USN SOP).

You know when you land and touch with the main gear and the ability to hold the nose up aerobraking.Yes, thats why I posted the video of the IRAF doing it, you can see them holding the nose up for a while typical of of how non carrier pilots. And they seem to have full flaps on and Spoilers as well. They also seem to able to keep the nose up for a while (that aerobraking). I am not talking of using its giant stabs that also does its role in it.

In DCS, F-14B, with full flaps and spoilers on. The airplane, as soon as the mains touch, the nose comes down, the breaking effect together with the spoiler is IMMENSE...its almost like the F-14 can do the shortest landing. Yes, I do have the stick full aft and make the Stabs/elevators do its role in the aerobraking till the plane comes to a halt almost.

Also, F-14 is not supposed to take of in full burner, I believe its part of the manual rules on safety concern. But...still I see vids of F-14 clearly taking off from carrier using full burner.

Vids shows F-14 taking off in FULL BURNER.

That video you posted is an F-14A, not F-14B. SOP in the A model uses afterburner for all takeoffs unless the aircraft is very light.

For what you're asking, you can do exactly just that in the sim as well. They key is to NOT be on speed. Those Iranians were clearly a tad fast. This method is also not how you're supposed to land the Tomcat in the safest and most effective manner. However, you can still do just that in DCS, simply mind your rate.

I am not talking of the CORRECT landing procedure...

 

 

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Oh well, in that case, why not just land it upside down?

If you are going to aerobrake, then try flying about ten knots above on speed, carry a little power into the flare, and touch down gently. You will likely need additional aft stick immediately on touchdown to hold the nose up. The aircraft has tons of low speed nose authority.

Some of the issue may be that DCS's ground "friction" is a bit too high, but there isn't much that can be done about that.

Last thing to work on is tuning up your sense of humor. It needs a lot of work.

Who's going to post a good- upside down landing on centerline in the touchdown zone first?

Who's going to post a good- upside down landing on centerline in the touchdown zone first?

Hold my beer...

For what you're asking, you can do exactly just that in the sim as well. They key is to NOT be on speed. Those Iranians were clearly a tad fast. This method is also not how you're supposed to land the Tomcat in the safest and most effective manner. However, you can still do just that in DCS, simply mind your rate.

But, when you have FULL flaps on and clean load, you will be forced to land with lower speed in DCS, and as soon as the main gear touches, the nose will come down hard as the spoilers also act along with the giant stabilizers. The plane comes to a halt VERY fast. Its almost impossible to keep the nose up...like the Iranians did. They also seem to have clean load.

Also, with full flaps on and clean load...It is hard to land fast.

Oh well, in that case, why not just land it upside down?

 

If you are going to aerobrake, then try flying about ten knots above on speed, carry a little power into the flare, and touch down gently. You will likely need additional aft stick immediately on touchdown to hold the nose up. The aircraft has tons of low speed nose authority.

 

Some of the issue may be that DCS's ground "friction" is a bit too high, but there isn't much that can be done about that.

 

Last thing to work on is tuning up your sense of humor. It needs a lot of work.

 

Who's going to post a good- upside down landing on centerline in the touchdown zone first?

I was not talking of following SOP...and you said something about following SOP.

I was asking, if the F-14 can Aerobrake or not? Like, keeping the nose high after the mains touch the ground , that kind of aerobraking like what those land based pilots do.

The location of the CG relative to the mains, your airspeed, and your rate of decent will all affect your ability to hold the nose up with the stabs as you touch down. In order to aerobrake you'd need to land fast at a low rate of descent, preferably with an aft CG. You're welcome do to that if you want, it's just not SOP. Maybe the Iranians do it to save the brakes since they don't have many spares.

The location of the CG relative to the mains, your airspeed, and your rate of decent will all affect your ability to hold the nose up with the stabs as you touch down. In order to aerobrake you'd need to land fast at a low rate of descent, preferably with an aft CG. You're welcome do to that if you want, it's just not SOP. Maybe the Iranians do it to save the brakes since they don't have many spares.

Yes, may not be SOP....But as the Iranians do, It CAN be done. As you say, it seems to be good on saving brakes.

In DCS, It is almost impossible to come in fast (tried this), when you have around 25-40 percent fuel approx, clean load, FULL flaps and spoilers set, acting when the mains touch, inducing an Immense braking effect along with the stabilizers in full aft also acting as aero-brakes. Pretty easy to stop in short runways in DCS.

Without flaps, its possible to hold the nose high to some degree...With full, no.

While not SOP procedure, that was a smooth landing from the Iranians.

This complaint comes up with most DCS modules. I've seen the same arguments regarding the Mirage, F-5 and Mig-21.

I suspect a lot of it comes down to friction with the ground being too high, as Victory mentioned already. The alternative explanations that four different FMs of different aircraft all being wrong in the same exact way seems a bit of a stretch.

Who's going to post a good- upside down landing on centerline in the touchdown zone first?

Flaps unnecessary, but the hook...absolutely!

Kidding aside, OP, have you tried to test it at all? Something I've noticed recently in a number of sub-forums (F/A-18, F-16) is a lot of questions being asked without anyone actually trying to test what they're asking about. "Can x, y, z be done?" If you want to know, get the aircraft into some configurations and see if you can do it. If you can't, then maybe ask and someone else might try and let you know if they succeed, then they can give you what they did to make it so.

Flaps unnecessary, but the hook...absolutely!

 

 

Kidding aside, OP, have you tried to test it at all? Something I've noticed recently in a number of sub-forums (F/A-18, F-16) is a lot of questions being asked without anyone actually trying to test what they're asking about. "Can x, y, z be done?" If you want to know, get the aircraft into some configurations and see if you can do it. If you can't, then maybe ask and someone else might try and let you know if they succeed, then they can give you what they did to make it so.

I’m with you. Put in a little study work, then go do it. Some of the landings I see are getting pretty good. Nice to see.

No, time to play right now, I up to my arse in real life™ stuff right now. Might be retiring soon, giving me even more time to sim and harass all of you and finish up my guides.

I’m with you. Put in a little study work, then go do it. Some of the landings I see are getting pretty good. Nice to see.

 

No, time to play right now, I up to my arse in real life™ stuff right now. Might be retiring soon, giving me even more time to sim and harass all of you and finish up my guides.

Just in time for the release of the F-14A :book:

Flaps unnecessary, but the hook...absolutely!

 

 

Kidding aside, OP, have you tried to test it at all? Something I've noticed recently in a number of sub-forums (F/A-18, F-16) is a lot of questions being asked without anyone actually trying to test what they're asking about. "Can x, y, z be done?" If you want to know, get the aircraft into some configurations and see if you can do it. If you can't, then maybe ask and someone else might try and let you know if they succeed, then they can give you what they did to make it so.

Yes, I did mention, that I HAVE TRIED it with FLAPS off and FLAPS down.

You can clearly see the Iranian pilots have full flaps down and full spoilers as well and they can keep the nose up to a considerable time. They also don't seem to be carrying external stores.

But in DCS F-14, TRYING to land above on speed, is VERY DIFFICULT if you, FULL FLAPS, 20-40 percent of fuel, clean load. So soon as the main gear touches the spoiler along with the stabs also act as brakes and begins the immense braking, and with SPEED BRAKES deployed as well. Its seems more easier to land on short runways with F-14. Maybe the DCS ground friction plays as well.

You certainly CANNOT keep the nose high like those Iranians did in DCS F-14. And my observation on the Iranians is that they also had the SPEED BRAKES deployed along with Spoilers and full flaps.

It is POSSIBLE to land and keep the nose high WITHOUT flaps down, to some degree. I did mention all this in the previous post. Without spoilers, its even easier.

Okay, so I just took about 6 stabs at this, and you probably could keep the nose high like in that video if you practice it a bit. The thing is, it isn't my typical landing form in the Tomcat so it felt unnatural. This part will sound "Holy Grail-ish": The first attempt was just a flat out landing because I was trying to figure out how to do it. The second attempt, I had the nose come down and contact the deck before rising back up and holding for a while akin to the video, then it came back down (but again, it contacted the ground initially). This told me it could be done. The third attempt was another bounce. The fourth, the angle was too high and I lost too much speed, the fifth was a bounce and the jet took back off, came around for the sixth, and on the sixth, with judicious use of DLC for the final few feet, I held the nose up for a few seconds before decelerating enough that it dropped.

Here's the thing: like I mentioned above, this is not a normal landing technique for me, but in six flights I got the nose to hold up briefly (about three seconds before dipping and about five before being solidly on the deck), and I know that if I modulated the throttles a bit and adjusted back pressure on the stick with more precision, I could probably get the jet to do what the video shows. Technique takes practice. I think it can be done.

EDIT: Configuration of the jet: full flaps, DLC, clean, 30% fuel.

EDIT 2: Excessive ground friction could indeed be at play, as you mention. If that's the case, then it might not be as easy, or require the engines to be at a higher setting, which makes the aircraft more liable to take off. I can't be sure of that, though.

Okay, so I just took about 6 stabs at this, and you probably could keep the nose high like in that video if you practice it a bit. The thing is, it isn't my typical landing form in the Tomcat so it felt unnatural. This part will sound "Holy Grail-ish": The first attempt was just a flat out landing because I was trying to figure out how to do it. The second attempt, I had the nose come down and contact the deck before rising back up and holding for a while akin to the video, then it came back down (but again, it contacted the ground initially). This told me it could be done. The third attempt was another bounce. The fourth, the angle was too high and I lost too much speed, the fifth was a bounce and the jet took back off, came around for the sixth, and on the sixth, with judicious use of DLC for the final few feet, I held the nose up for a few seconds before decelerating enough that it dropped.

 

 

Here's the thing: like I mentioned above, this is not a normal landing technique for me, but in six flights I got the nose to hold up briefly (about three seconds before dipping and about five before being solidly on the deck), and I know that if I modulated the throttles a bit and adjusted back pressure on the stick with more precision, I could probably get the jet to do what the video shows. Technique takes practice. I think it can be done.

 

 

EDIT: Configuration of the jet: full flaps, DLC, clean, 30% fuel.

So, I am guessing that you had the full flaps, SPOILERS and the Speed brakes deployed with clean configuration, correct? The Iranians had Spoilers out, Speed brakes deployed, flaps fully down and clean load. And no, the vid shows the Iranians touch the main gear first and keep the nose up for the aerobraking.

Yes I understand this isn't the procedure with accordance of SOP. But Iranians do it. My question has always been can it do or not?

Perhaps the Iranians have developed different SOPs for landing on runways that save wear on the airframe and brakes - maybe the parts are difficult to source?

Parts are absolutely difficult to source, our State Department has seen to that (to the point even Americans don't get to enjoy Tomcats anymore).

The other thing here is the Iranian Tomcats are probably lighter than our current B model, possibly by a decent margin. Lighter plane should mean easier to hold the nose right?

Last thought, are we trying to do Eagle stuff in Tomcats again?

Perhaps the Iranians have developed different SOPs for landing on runways that save wear on the airframe and brakes - maybe the parts are difficult to source?

Clearly they are ABLE to do it and hold the nose up after the mains touch.

They have the following as per the video I posted. FULL flaps down, SPEED BRAKES, Spoilers all deployed to full. Clean load.

Watch from 3:06

Can DCS F-14 model do it or not? and no I am not talking of the US SOP format as the users are Naval pilots.

OFF TOPIC on the Naval legacy hornet...but still related as the following does not seem to follow NATOPS landing procedure as these are flown by land based pilots and not used to carrier landings.

Skip to 4:35 on the first vid.

So, I am guessing that you had the full flaps, SPOILERS and the Speed brakes deployed with clean configuration, correct? The Iranians had Spoilers out, Speed brakes deployed, flaps fully down and clean load. And no, the vid shows the Iranians touch the main gear first and keep the nose up for the aerobraking.

 

 

Yes I understand this isn't the procedure with accordance of SOP. But Iranians do it. My question has always been can it do or not?

Yes, it can, you can't because your sink rate is probably too high and your probably using a crappy center sprung joystick.

But yes, you can keep the nose off if you're competent in the aircraft.

So.....get practicing!