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[ALREADY REPORTED]Incorrect ranges of DCS MiG-29 radar


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MiG-29B description states the following minimum detection and tracking ranges for a 3 m² RCS target:

 

ci78cqC.jpg

 

And here some ranges with less clear conditions from a MiG-29 manual.

 

kfLUpr9.jpg

 

In DCS the >3000m tests with a JF-17 as target (exactly 3 m³ RCS in the config) gives the following maximum ranges for the MiG-29:

 

PPS lookup:

detection max 65 (real: min 65-75) - a little low

tracking max 56 (real: min 50-55) - ok

 

PPS lookdown:

detection max 43 (real: min 60-70) - way to low!

tracking max 38 (real: min 45-50) - way to low!

 

ZPS lookup:

detection max 22 (real: min 30) - way to low!

tracking max 19 (real: min 21) - ok

 

ZPS lookdown

detection max 15 (real: min 18 ) - a little low

tracking max 13 (real: min 12) - ok

 

Especially the PPS lookdown ranges and the ZPS lookup detection range are way to low and should be adjusted to the realistic values.

 

It is clear that the >3000m altitude radar ranges are far below their real values. This is bad, because when flying higher is exactly when sufficient radar range is necessary.

 

On top of that, those ranges are for the earlier MiGs. MiG-29C should have an additional range improvement.

 

Tracks for the detection and tracking ranges are attached.

 

I really hope (but doubt) that the radar range of the DCS MiG-29 will be fixed.

N019_PPS_lookup.trk

N019_PPS_lookdown.trk

N019_ZPS_lookup.trk

N019_ZPS_lookdown.trk


Edited by BlackPixxel
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  • 4 weeks later...

Dear Eagle Dynamics,

 

it would be nice if our domestic MiG-29 and especially the upgraded MiG-29S would meet the radar performance of the MiG-29B, which is a downgraded export version.

 

You see clear evidence that the radar detection ranges in lookdown situations are way to low compared to the real aircraft.

 

Getting the proper radar ranges for the DCS: MiG-29 variants would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thank you!

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I've heard that in DCS 29A and 29S have the same radar strength. I haven't tested this so treat it as a rumour. If it's true it would be gret if 29S radar was improved.

 

29S radar wasn't a huge improvement over 29A though. I think the improvement is no greater than 10 km in a look-up head on aspect. Not sure abou target size. So I may not be seeing the difference.

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In DCS the >3000m tests with a JF-17 as target (exactly 3 m³ RCS in the config) gives the following maximum ranges for the MiG-29:

 

Where did you get the 3 m^2 value from? I cannot find true values of RCS anywhere from any website. I have only ever found some guy's forum post on aircraft RCS with no academic source.

 

Furthermore, RCS is a messy thing that relies on aspect (i.e. even if you are looking down at a perfectly "hot" target, they may not be facing you directly since you are looking somewhat down on them and the RCS might not be exactly the value you found).

 

Although I agree that the FC3 radars in general are nothing like the F/A-18 and F-16 radars and hope one day - probably just a dream - that they will be updated along with the RWRs and such.

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This is the RCS value for the JF-17 that is defined in the game files.

 

In DCS the RCS is constant, different directions will not affect RCS.

 

Oh I had no idea that was the case. Thanks for the update. In that case I see what you mean. Something tells me all the FC3 radar detection ranges are off, but we'll see.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Also as this presentation referencing "Радиолокационный прицельный комплекс РЛПК-29 истребителя МиГ-29. Ч.1. - Рига, РВВАИУ, 1990."

the similar values are presented and PPS Look-down above 3000m gives values of 60km to 70km, yet in DCS target(JF-17) is picked up at ~40kms

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=237423&stc=1&d=1590583925

N019.PNG.9e9ba32bdc75af39ba9e68eee9ce79b2.PNG


Edited by FoxAlfa

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All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

Long time ago in galaxy far far away:

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What’s the RCS for that picture? JF-17 has 3m squared RCS

 

3m squared as well

-------

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

Long time ago in galaxy far far away:

https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery

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  • 3 weeks later...
Go re-test this with another Mig-29 or clean F-16. I think the JF17 RCS might be bugged and have some "hidden" values.

 

You can re-test with any aircraft you like, the look-down above 3000m will always be 25-30% weaker then a look-up for PPS. And due to aspect and alt of the target, noise filtering is straight forward so the difference should be minimal as the tables of RL documents also show.

-------

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

Long time ago in galaxy far far away:

https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery

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I dont know man, I've heard first hand that the 29A/S radars dont see jack s*** 90% of the time. Also, did you know that the frotal hemisphere of your RWR will be inhibited whenever you have a radar lock? Our SPO-15 is modelled compeltely wrong as well when it comes to displaying data and radar/emission types. So eh, it's FC3, a very dumbed down arcady simulation. I would rather have someone do a proper full fidelity Mig 29 or Su 27 model.

 

On the other hand the F-16 and F/A-18C radar HUGELY overperform in DCS. Almost Tomcat levels of radar.

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I dont know man, I've heard first hand that the 29A/S radars dont see jack s*** 90% of the time. Also, did you know that the frotal hemisphere of your RWR will be inhibited whenever you have a radar lock? Our SPO-15 is modelled compeltely wrong as well when it comes to displaying data and radar/emission types. So eh, it's FC3, a very dumbed down arcady simulation. I would rather have someone do a proper full fidelity Mig 29 or Su 27 model.

Reports are that the SPO will not function correctly if using the radar and ecm at the same time.

 

The SPO library has been brought up plenty of times before, but the reality is the library will be classified and tailored to the mission at hand, likewise DCS SPO is tailored to DCS. To call it flat out wrong is incorrect, it approximates the function of a classified system.

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Reports are that the SPO will not function correctly if using the radar and ecm at the same time.

 

The SPO library has been brought up plenty of times before, but the reality is the library will be classified and tailored to the mission at hand, likewise DCS SPO is tailored to DCS. To call it flat out wrong is incorrect, it approximates the function of a classified system.

 

It's not as classified as some might think. There's plenty of documentation out there available stating EXACTLY how it should work on various early Mig-29 models that had the 15 equipped as well as SU-27S, P, SK. Add to that SME feeback and you can get a fairly complete picture on what it should really show. Heck even older western RWR's will show false positives half the time based on the emissions they encounter.


Edited by Airhunter
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Even if the range was correct it would not see jack s*** compared to everyone else. It will still be fired upon before even seeing the bandit on radar.

 

Correct, The 29 was never designed as a BVR air superiority platform. It's primary design was all based around ground control stations and being a frontline fighter - get in, F stuff up as quickly as possible, get out. Hence the R-73 and HMD philosophy that was revolutionary at the time.

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Also, did you know that the frotal hemisphere of your RWR will be inhibited whenever you have a radar lock?

 

Sure, but do you know what that actually means? Does it mean you get zero RWR sensitivity, or is sensitivity reduced?

See, with an integrated EW system the RWR, ECM and Radar will cooperate so that all systems can operate - to you simultaneously, to those systems, sequentially.

 

The RWR may blank out when the radar and/or ECM emit, the radar may blank out some times while ECM emits (if on the same channel, I guess) and ECM may or may not be prioritized for emission based on who-knows-what.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

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The generally a lot of things DCS are too reliable, RWR, TWS, Missiles, Locks, CMs, etc.

The main reason modeling and calculating such things adds a lot more calculations and complexity and the simulator is already pushing the hardware limit.

 

To keep in on topic, this correction of range is quite needed, since 30% difference has a large impact on volume scanned and also it is clearly documented.

-------

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

Long time ago in galaxy far far away:

https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery

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Even if the range was correct it would not see jack s*** compared to everyone else. It will still be fired upon before even seeing the bandit on radar.

 

I've never seen any plane to launch at my mig anything before i spot it with my radar. Except F-14 of course

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