Su-57 was necessary when the Russians had Su-35s ?

First: The Electronic Warfare suite on the F-35; The AN/ASQ-239 is very modern, compared with the L-175V in the Su-35 and comparable, if not better, then the L-402 in the Su-57.

 

Second: None of those aircraft 'rely' on any single system to survive. Your fooling yourself if you think stealth is not just as important these days as radar warning receivers.

 

Stealth is an absolute game-changer, not being able to employ your weapons until the enemy is close enough for IR senors to see them puts you at a enormous disadvantage, in a already highly contested situation (regarding Electronic Warfare).

 

If Fact its such a game-changer Its no longer a tactical problem, now its a strategic problem. 4th Generation aircraft are not effective in the face of that kind of capability.

 

I'd be like going up against a sniper in a bell tower, with a hand gun. Yeah you might have a shot at an even fight if you can get in close, but the sniper going to see you way before you see him. It's just not a fair fight. Your at an extreme disadvantage

 

AN / ASQ-239 is an ELINT and RWR replacement system, it does not fool missiles

 

The F-22 has never been able to replace the F-15, the forthcoming F-15X.

The F-117 was shot down, and the Americans canceled the F-117

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-15x-air-forces-next-super-fighter-or-waste-time-28492

 

Su-57 reduces RCS better than F-35 export version (0.5m2 vs. 0.15m2). Su-57 has a comprehensive ECM system. It has many strong point: stealth + super maneuvers + many ECM/ELINT + IRST + long-range missiles (R37M, K77M). It outperformed the F-22/35.

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by blackadam

At the beginning of next year, the first 2 Su-57s will go to the military unit (Lipetsk air base) - to train the pilots and create methods for the combat use of the aircraft

@fri13

I also am relatively debt free, nevertheless I cannot afford a Lambo. Russia is relatively debt free compared to USA it's true. But since we're comparing numbers, the US economy is approximately 10x the size of Russia's, as is their military expenditure. End result? The US can buy $100 million warplanes. The Russians cannot.

 

For more proof, observe the Su-30, an excellent warplane that Russia built hundreds of... mostly for other countries. The bulk of the Russian military consists mostly of Cold War era marks, with some QoL upgrades and service life extensions, both in the air and on the ground, because they cannot afford to upgrade extensively or build newer marks in significant quantity.

 

We don't need to compare economies when we can compare inventories. USA most items are new built or refitted/upgraded to 2000+ standards. RF most units are 1990s marks or earlier supplemented with small numbers of truly modern equipment.

 

@blackadam

ECM does not trump stealth anymore than stealth trumps ECM. A modern combat unit is combined arms, for starter, it is not Su-35/57 vs F-22. It is USAF vs AFRF. And F-22 wins by default considering there are 250 of then vs a handful of Su-35s and a dozen Su-57 prototypes.

 

Lastly, if they were truly much better, everyone would be buying them. But they're not. Are we to believe random forum internet warriors know better than the armed forces of several nations?

 

It's not tic tac toe, checkers, or rock paper scissors. It's not even DCS where the vast majority of missions people fly are ridiculously unrealistic by design. Sukhois do not get a +2 to agility saving throws and constitution buffs from heavy vodka consumption.

 

For more proof, observe the Su-30, an excellent warplane that Russia built hundreds of... mostly for other countries. The bulk of the Russian military consists mostly of Cold War era marks, with some QoL upgrades and service life extensions, both in the air and on the ground, because they cannot afford to upgrade extensively or build newer marks in significant quantity.

 

We don't need to compare economies when we can compare inventories. USA most items are new built or refitted/upgraded to 2000+ standards. RF most units are 1990s marks or earlier supplemented with small numbers of truly modern equipment.

 

 

This is not true. :thumbdown: There are a lot of absolutely new airplanes in the Russian air force. These planes are built in the last 6-7 years.

 

Su-34 > 100;

 

Su-30SM > 110;

 

Su-35S > 80;

 

Yak-130 > 100;

 

Кa-52 > 120;

 

Mi-28N > 100;

 

Many more new and modernized airplanes and helicopters (Su-30M2, Su-27SM/SM3, Mig-29K/KUB, Su-25SM/SM3, MiG-31BM, Mi-35 / Mi-17)

Edited August 14, 2018 by Flаnker

So 200 modern fighters, 100 modern bombers, 200 modern helicopters, and 100 modern trainers. That's relatively few, in comparison to their competitors. As already said repeatedly, the US has 250 F-22s alone. Late model F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s probably number combined in the high hundreds at the very least, if not more, with hundreds of modern helicopters. There are expected to be a few thousand F-35s built.

 

You can quibble over Su-35 is 1337 super plane, but they're not so much better than an F-15, F-16, or F-18 to make up for being outnumbered 10 to 1.

 

What I said is precisely true. You cite 80 Su-30s, they made about 300 for India. So out of 400 modern planes built... 75% of them were built for other countries.

So 200 modern fighters, 100 modern bombers, 200 modern helicopters, and 100 modern trainers. That's relatively few, in comparison to their competitors. As already said repeatedly, the US has 250 F-22s alone. Late model F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s probably number combined in the high hundreds at the very least, if not more, with hundreds of modern helicopters. There are expected to be a few thousand F-35s built.

 

You can quibble over Su-35 is 1337 super plane, but they're not so much better than an F-15, F-16, or F-18 to make up for being outnumbered 10 to 1.

 

We are not going to fight with the US)) Now the Russian Air Force is the 2nd largest in the world.

 

What I said is precisely true. You cite 80 Su-30s, they made about 300 for India. So out of 400 modern planes built... 75% of them were built for other countries.

 

>110 Su-30SM

 

Most Su-30MKIs were assembled in India from Russian components. In Russia in the 90s there was a difficult economic situation. Now there is a gradual rearmament of the army.

So 200 modern fighters, 100 modern bombers, 200 modern helicopters, and 100 modern trainers. That's relatively few, in comparison to their competitors. As already said repeatedly, the US has 250 F-22s alone. Late model F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s probably number combined in the high hundreds at the very least, if not more, with hundreds of modern helicopters. There are expected to be a few thousand F-35s built.

 

You can quibble over Su-35 is 1337 super plane, but they're not so much better than an F-15, F-16, or F-18 to make up for being outnumbered 10 to 1.

 

What I said is precisely true. You cite 80 Su-30s, they made about 300 for India. So out of 400 modern planes built... 75% of them were built for other countries.

 

There are more than 100 F-22s completed, however, both F-22 and F-35 are not capable of effective weaponry (AIM120D is not yet available for F22 / 35, AIM9X is not yet available for F22 / 35) , numbers are only dominant when dogfight. And even with the AIM120D, the F22 still has a lower range than the Su-35

 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-air-force-has-plan-guarantee-the-f-22-dominates-the-24286

https://sputniknews.com/military/201706141054637332-russian-su35s-vs-f22/

 

 

Russia is on the defensive side, they have S300 / 400, Buk-M2E and Pantsir-S1. NATO is the offensive side, they do not have that, the obvious disadvantage lies with the attackers, during the Vietnam War the air force and air force of the US Navy suffered many casualties in front of the Vietnamese air defense and air force Mixed Vietnam

Edited August 14, 2018 by blackadam

Recheck your numbers zhukov.

 

The F-22 constructed were 8 for test and 187 production. After several crashes they have around 180. But only 125+- are fully operational at any given time due to maintenance-upgrades.

 

Not even close to your 250.

@fri13

I also am relatively debt free, nevertheless I cannot afford a Lambo. Russia is relatively debt free compared to USA it's true. But since we're comparing numbers, the US economy is approximately 10x the size of Russia's, as is their military expenditure. End result? The US can buy $100 million warplanes. The Russians cannot.

 

For more proof, observe the Su-30, an excellent warplane that Russia built hundreds of... mostly for other countries. The bulk of the Russian military consists mostly of Cold War era marks, with some QoL upgrades and service life extensions, both in the air and on the ground, because they cannot afford to upgrade extensively or build newer marks in significant quantity.

 

We don't need to compare economies when we can compare inventories. USA most items are new built or refitted/upgraded to 2000+ standards. RF most units are 1990s marks or earlier supplemented with small numbers of truly modern equipment.

 

@blackadam

ECM does not trump stealth anymore than stealth trumps ECM. A modern combat unit is combined arms, for starter, it is not Su-35/57 vs F-22. It is USAF vs AFRF. And F-22 wins by default considering there are 250 of then vs a handful of Su-35s and a dozen Su-57 prototypes.

 

Lastly, if they were truly much better, everyone would be buying them. But they're not. Are we to believe random forum internet warriors know better than the armed forces of several nations?

 

It's not tic tac toe, checkers, or rock paper scissors. It's not even DCS where the vast majority of missions people fly are ridiculously unrealistic by design. Sukhois do not get a +2 to agility saving throws and constitution buffs from heavy vodka consumption.

 

F-22 is not stealthed, it only reduces RCS. AWACS, radar, OTH radar, Russian IRST can still detect it

 

Quit the Internet legend of the stealth supernatural, it is advertising, an aircraft will create turbulence on the radar.

 

F-35 was detected on radar ATC (Air Traffic Control)

 

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/24/image-of-israeli-f-35-flying-off-beirut-with-radar-reflectors-as-well-as-more-details-about-the-adirs-first-strikes-emerge/

 

And don't remmenber F-117 was shot down

 

https://theaviationist.com/2014/03/27/vega-31-shot-down/

 

The Russians had the MiG-31, Su-27SM3, Su-30SM, Su-35S with R-37M, K-77M and K-100 supersonic missiles. The F-22 has absolutely no equivalent, The F-22 always advertises look first firing first but it can't, In dogfight aircraft more maneuverable like the Su-27/30 will prevail over, the number does not matter. In Vietnam, the MiG-21s were smaller, but they were more successful than the larger numbers F-4, the F-105, combined with the vietnamese dense air defense. The F-22 does not have the same HMS capability as the Su-27 (HMS + R-73), which has upgraded the HMDS for the F-22 but still marks a completion?

Edited August 14, 2018 by blackadam

I would suggest y'all to watch the F35 Myth Busting videos in Youtube. They show you some facts based in unbiased data and math.

Also when talking about missiles of the Flankers family, you should look for the quantities that have been bought, as the Flankers in Syria have already been seen with more R27 than R77

 

 

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Also when talking about missiles of the Flankers family, you should look for the quantities that have been bought, as the Flankers in Syria have already been seen with more R27 than R77

 

Now, the main weapon of the Su-35 and other aircraft is the R-77-1 missile. The development of this missile was completed in 2014-2015. The Russian Air Force buys about 200 missile a year.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Flаnker

I see just two in any of these aircrafts, while I see 4, to 6 to 12 to 22 AIM-120 planned for Western Aircrafts

So now they have about 400 for all the airforce, so they have something like an AMMAM-B or early C version, without the 2 way datalinks, no NIF-CA capability. While they're using AIM-120D or C7 without having to relay in the old R27 that performed worse in the Eritrean conflict than the early AIM7 in Vietnam. Not precisely encouraging.

Now, the main weapon of the Su-35 and other aircraft is the R-77-1 missile. The development of this missile was completed in 2014-2015. The Russian Air Force buys about 200 missile a year.

 

 

 

 

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One step at a time

One step at a time

I agree with you. But we should also agree that the Western powers are also advancing. To show you and example, your're assuming an F35 can use now just 4 missiles. The point is if it's within the range of a DD, he instantly have a 96 SM2 maximum magazine to shoot at anything without even opening de bay doors.

Imagine that, terrifying

 

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I see just two in any of these aircrafts, while I see 4, to 6 to 12 to 22 AIM-120 planned for Western Aircrafts

So now they have about 400 for all the airforce, so they have something like an AMMAM-B or early C version, without the 2 way datalinks, no NIF-CA capability. While they're using AIM-120D or C7 without having to relay in the old R27 that performed worse in the Eritrean conflict than the early AIM7 in Vietnam. Not precisely encouraging.

 

All missiles (for example, American or Russian) have a small resource (they can be suspended under the aircraft only a few times - after that they need to be sent for maintenance). Therefore, for training flights (without launching missiles), use a small number of missiles.

 

4 R-77-1

 

 

6 R-77-1

 

@fri13

I also am relatively debt free, nevertheless I cannot afford a Lambo. Russia is relatively debt free compared to USA it's true. But since we're comparing numbers, the US economy is approximately 10x the size of Russia's, as is their military expenditure. End result? The US can buy $100 million warplanes. The Russians cannot.

 

The point is that it is foolish to even say Russia is broke. USA is broke, they can't afford to anything. They simply just make more money to pay all, creating more debt.

 

Their military expenses are larger than next 20 largest military nations in total.

 

While their citizens starve, can't afford to basics living goods, can't house themselves, can't even educate themselves, the country is in edge of the trashcan. Only being kept up with illusion that they can afford to everything because their economy is so big and proof for that is used the top 10-20% people conditions etc.

 

Yes I can afford to buy few dozens of F-35 personally, after I get few billions loan from a bank.... But hey, I am never broke as I can always take a another loan and I can live as a rich! As once I have those F-35 I can threaten the banks to loan money to me...

 

Not....

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

F-22 is not stealthed, it only reduces RCS. AWACS, radar, OTH radar, Russian IRST can still detect it

 

Quit the Internet legend of the stealth supernatural, it is advertising, an aircraft will create turbulence on the radar.

 

F-35 was detected on radar ATC (Air Traffic Control)

 

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/24/image-of-israeli-f-35-flying-off-beirut-with-radar-reflectors-as-well-as-more-details-about-the-adirs-first-strikes-emerge/

 

And don't remmenber F-117 was shot down

 

https://theaviationist.com/2014/03/27/vega-31-shot-down/

 

The Russians had the MiG-31, Su-27SM3, Su-30SM, Su-35S with R-37M, K-77M and K-100 supersonic missiles. The F-22 has absolutely no equivalent, The F-22 always advertises look first firing first but it can't, In dogfight aircraft more maneuverable like the Su-27/30 will prevail over, the number does not matter. In Vietnam, the MiG-21s were smaller, but they were more successful than the larger numbers F-4, the F-105, combined with the vietnamese dense air defense. The F-22 does not have the same HMS capability as the Su-27 (HMS + R-73), which has upgraded the HMDS for the F-22 but still marks a completion?

 

F-22 is not stealthed, it only reduces RCS. AWACS, radar, OTH radar, Russian IRST can still detect it

 

Quit the Internet legend of the stealth supernatural, it is advertising, an aircraft will create turbulence on the radar.

 

F-35 was detected on radar ATC (Air Traffic Control)

 

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/24/image-of-israeli-f-35-flying-off-beirut-with-radar-reflectors-as-well-as-more-details-about-the-adirs-first-strikes-emerge/

 

And don't remmenber F-117 was shot down

 

https://theaviationist.com/2014/03/27/vega-31-shot-down/

 

The Russians had the MiG-31, Su-27SM3, Su-30SM, Su-35S with R-37M, K-77M and K-100 supersonic missiles. The F-22 has absolutely no equivalent, The F-22 always advertises look first firing first but it can't, In dogfight aircraft more maneuverable like the Su-27/30 will prevail over, the number does not matter. In Vietnam, the MiG-21s were smaller, but they were more successful than the larger numbers F-4, the F-105, combined with the vietnamese dense air defense. The F-22 does not have the same HMS capability as the Su-27 (HMS + R-73), which has upgraded the HMDS for the F-22 but still marks a completion?

 

F35 detected in ATC because they use Luneberg lens, and sometimes they left the IFF transponder on.

AIM 9X block I and II are more advanced than the R73 used by the Flankers and Fulcrums.

https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

I suggest you reading this page before talking about the use of IRST and radar to detect the F22/35

Some of the missiles you mention aren't even in production

 

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Su-57 and Su-35 rely on ECM to survive, F-22/35 based on stealth

 

ECM is better, stealth can not help you survive

 

False. Both the F22 and F35 have very potent ECM/EW capabilities of their own to complement their stealth features. I think you would benefit from doing some more research before making such bold claims my friend...

 

Have a read up on APG77, APG81, ASQ239, ALE70 and ALR94 to get started ;-)

Edited August 15, 2018 by Boogieman

This thread has all the hallmarks of being a classic

The point is that it is foolish to even say Russia is broke. USA is broke, they can't afford to anything. They simply just make more money to pay all, creating more debt.

 

Their military expenses are larger than next 20 largest military nations in total.

 

While their citizens starve, can't afford to basics living goods, can't house themselves, can't even educate themselves, the country is in edge of the trashcan. Only being kept up with illusion that they can afford to everything because their economy is so big and proof for that is used the top 10-20% people conditions etc.

 

Yes I can afford to buy few dozens of F-35 personally, after I get few billions loan from a bank.... But hey, I am never broke as I can always take a another loan and I can live as a rich! As once I have those F-35 I can threaten the banks to loan money to me...

 

Yeah, Russia is in pretty dire times, but I have hope they'll pull out of it. The only people in the US who are struggling are dumb trash that churn out babies. I live there. It ain't that hard to prosper here provided you're not a moron.

 

But whatever, Russia stronk, USA sucks, whatever makes you guys happy. I just know only one of these countries has endured a complete political collapse in the last 30 years, and it wasn't the USA. Things are rough, but yeah... to say you exaggerate is a gross understatement. Kind of like the tendency in this thread to exaggerate that the Su-35 can destroy millions of enemies with its heat seaking death rays, but whatever.

 

I will retract my comment about 250, though. After it was said 180, that kind of clicked and sounded more right :) Not sure where I got 250. Regardless, my original point stands. There are still more 22s than 35s and 57s combined.

 

@Blackadam

"F-22 isn't stealth it just reduces the radar cross-section". What the actual f do you think stealth is? It's not a invisibility screen like in the movies. Stealth IS RCS reduction, that is the definition of it. And yes, it still generates heat and can be seen in the IR spectrum. That.... isn't a refutation of anything o.O You're just stating the obvious.

 

What do you think the "stealthing" on a Su-57 does? IT REDUCES THE RCS @@ Absorbent coatings reduce the energy being reflected in the first, and the shape of the hull scatters the signals away from the beaming aircraft, as a result it either gets filtered out or can't be tracked accurately enough for a weapon lock. That's the whole idea.

 

 

@Rage

It's just a dick waving contest like 75% of the threads on this forum. Nothing special here :P

AN / ASQ-239 is an ELINT and RWR replacement system, it does not fool missiles

 

The F-22 has never been able to replace the F-15, the forthcoming F-15X.

The F-117 was shot down, and the Americans canceled the F-117

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-15x-air-forces-next-super-fighter-or-waste-time-28492

 

Su-57 reduces RCS better than F-35 export version (0.5m2 vs. 0.15m2). Su-57 has a comprehensive ECM system. It has many strong point: stealth + super maneuvers + many ECM/ELINT + IRST + long-range missiles (R37M, K77M). It outperformed the F-22/35.

 

 

The AN/ ASQ-239 isn’t only ELINT system, it’s a full ECM system with jammer too.

Even the radar can be used to perform high power jamming.

 

Without doubt the F-22 RCS is significantly lower than Su-35, so if he can reach firing range before Su-35 can detect and target it, the Flanker will have a bad day. F-22 can also super-cruise with full AA load, I’m waiting to see that on Flanker.

And to my knowledge, the Su-35 still uses I/X band radar, and AESA fitted F-15C are probably able to give them a run for their money.

 

The D/L band radar on Su-57 is interesting yet.

 

Do you seriously pretend to know F-35 RCS ?

 

F-117 shot down is mainly a tactical mistake and the lesson has been learnt.

The D/L band is said to be an IFF radar, also that it lacks the resolution to be able to get a good weapons grade track. Not enough modules/antena size

The AN/ ASQ-239 isn’t only ELINT system, it’s a full ECM system with jammer too.

Even the radar can be used to perform high power jamming.

 

Without doubt the F-22 RCS is significantly lower than Su-35, so if he can reach firing range before Su-35 can detect and target it, the Flanker will have a bad day. F-22 can also super-cruise with full AA load, I’m waiting to see that on Flanker.

And to my knowledge, the Su-35 still uses I/X band radar, and AESA fitted F-15C are probably able to give them a run for their money.

 

The D/L band radar on Su-57 is interesting yet.

 

Do you seriously pretend to know F-35 RCS ?

 

F-117 shot down is mainly a tactical mistake and the lesson has been learnt.

 

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The D/L band is said to be an IFF radar, also that it lacks the resolution to be able to get a good weapons grade track. Not enough modules/antena size

 

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I read the exact opposite: not just IFF interrogator.

 

 

And it wouldn't make any sense to use such large antenna for IFF interrogation compared to previous radar design.

 

 

However I don't pretend to know detection range Vs stealth target or the tracking quality.

I read the exact opposite: not just IFF interrogator.

 

 

And it wouldn't make any sense to use such large antenna for IFF interrogation compared to previous radar design.

 

 

However I don't pretend to know detection range Vs stealth target or the tracking quality.

I suggest this post when talking about the L-Band radar array on the SU-57 vs F-22/35

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20005

Recheck your numbers zhukov.

 

The F-22 constructed were 8 for test and 187 production. After several crashes they have around 180. But only 125+- are fully operational at any given time due to maintenance-upgrades.

 

Not even close to your 250.

Yes, the 125 are combat coded. The rest are not. BUT they can be on a quick notice. It would just be money and motivation at this point, say, like Su-57 entering full rate production. They're already thinking about updating the non-combat coded F-22's as a solution to help out the current high demand of the Raptor around the world. For an aircraft that is easily beaten by Flankers, it sure is desired as a deterrent around the world i must say!

 

 

No idea why some are you are arguing in this thread, just wasting your time. Blackadam has gotten banned on many respectable aviation forums. So he's just moving one to another trying his best to be propaganda for god knows what reason, i hope it's for a paycheck.. and not pride.

 

 

Crazy to see Flanker come over from the other side though, he's even involved in the fight :D.

 

This thread has all the hallmarks of being a classic

Indeed! Haha.
Edited August 17, 2018 by wilky510