Best way to carry 2x Aim 54?

What is the best way to run 2x Aim54 4xAim7?

Putting the Phoenix on the outside or inside stations?

Two phoenix on the front belly stations, two sparrows outside and one sparrow at the belly. And of course two sidewinders.

Is that the least draggy solution?

Yes, the center hard-points produce less drag then the wing stations, and if the AIM-54s' were in the rear, the aircraft would be tail heavy.

Plus the front fairings and racks have to be there for the cooling. So taking just the rear ones wouldn't be realistic.

Stations 1 and 7 have a huge maneuvering and drag penalty - try dogfighting with those loaded. 2 forward on the belly.

I've seen many "ugly" payloads with the TGP on one wing station and a Phoenix on the other wing station, but no Phoenixes on the front belly stations. I'm guessing the wing-mounted Phoenix is used purely for ballast and isn't usable due to the cooling system requiring the front belly stations to have Phoenixes loaded too?

Yeah front belly stations for phoenix. Always makes me laugh and shake my head at the same time when I see all the tomcats taking off in multiplayer with the Domesday load out.

I like to carry an AIM-54 and an AIM-9 on each glove and 4x AIM-7s in the tunnel. It's a bitch to dogfight with if you do not use your Phoenix rounds before the merge, but once they are gone, it's a lot less drag and weight since the massive pylons will not be there.

Was this ever a real loadout?

Phoenix were rarely carried on the wing pylons, at least on the east coast. In my 10 years in east coast squadrons, I never saw Phoenix on a wing station.

P.S. interestingly enough, there is not a big drag penalty for the Phoenix on the wings. The Drag Index is 12 for the Phoenix both on the belly and the wings. The Phoenix pylon adapter has some penalty... the Sparrow adapter has a Drag Index of 2, and the Phoenix adapter is a 3. There are other penalties, of course with the heavier missile on the wings, farther from the CG.

Only references I could find for live Phoenixes loaded on a wing station were VF-102 with bombs taking up the belly stations.

Fantastic answers thanks!

I carry 2 sidewinders on the glove pylons then 2 sparrows and finally 2 phoenix on the belly pylons.

Those were our standard load outs. We had two standard load outs... two Sidewinder, two Sparrow, two Phoenix and then we had four Sidewinder, four Sparrow. This was before the Tomcat had a big A/G role (I got out of VF-41 right before they went on the cruise that wound up in Bosnia).

Very cool man and thx for the info. i will try that one.

I like to carry an AIM-54 and an AIM-9 on each glove and 4x AIM-7s in the tunnel. It's a bitch to dogfight with if you do not use your Phoenix rounds before the merge, but once they are gone, it's a lot less drag and weight since the massive pylons will not be there.

 

Was this ever a real loadout?

Yeah that would also be the least draggy load out after you've disposed of the two AIM-54's, as the stub rails for the AIM54's on station 1b & 8b have a drag index of just 3 each, where'as the belly rails each have a drag index of 10.

So if the plan is to fire off 2x AIM54's and then dogfight I'd choose your loadout example.

Isn't weapon and pylon drag a bit off in DCS at the moment?

It is, although its not clear to me if Heatblur 'own' the Aim54's they are using, or those are the ED ones they use for the A model. I think someone said there are 2 different incarnations of phoenix in the game at present?

I do know that if you are 4 up, you REALLY feel it. Its near marginal getting off the deck, and you are very slow indeed to climb to altitude. Its almost like you are doing everything with the drag brakes open.

I've seen many "ugly" payloads with the TGP on one wing station and a Phoenix on the other wing station, but no Phoenixes on the front belly stations. I'm guessing the wing-mounted Phoenix is used purely for ballast and isn't usable due to the cooling system requiring the front belly stations to have Phoenixes loaded too?

Glove (wing) stations should have their own coolant. :thumbup:

If I remember correctly, one 18-gallon pump/reservoir (in the station 6 Phoenix fairing) supplies coolant to all Phoenix. There are no dependencies on which stations need to be loaded, I.e. you can have Phoenix on the wing pylons only, if you choose.

Wait, so what was that deal with not being able to use Phoenixes on the glove pylons unless they were also loaded on the belly? I recall some kind of cooling limitation but can't find references.

If I remember correctly, one 18-gallon pump/reservoir (in the station 6 Phoenix fairing) supplies coolant to all Phoenix. There are no dependencies on which stations need to be loaded, I.e. you can have Phoenix on the wing pylons only, if you choose.

But, if you have the AIM-54A missiles on the wing pylons, you still need to have those Phoenix pylons on stations 3 & 6 for coolant then.

If I understood correctly, AIM-54C missiles don't require external coolant, so you could carry e.g. two of those on the wing pylons and four Sparrows on the belly (compared to the more standard loadout with two Phoenixes on the belly which nets you 3 Sparrows in total)?

If I understood correctly, AIM-54C missiles don't require external coolant,

Thats the Aim-54ECCM. The C does require cooling.

Thats the Aim-54ECCM. The C does require cooling.

Well, no, I believe he is correct... I don’t have a direct memory of it, because we never carried Phoenix on the wings and I never came across it. But the NATOPS states “AIM 54C missiles do not need liquid cooling.”

I am a little confused, according to this https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=700&ct=2 there were 3 C variants: C, C+ and ECCM. The original deployed in 1985 required cooling. The later models did not (or is C+ just another designation for ECCM?). Perhaps all Cs were upgraded to C+ standards eventually?

Anyway, it depends on what HB is modelling.