F-14 FC3 version bundled with the sim/available separately?

People who play online are about 5% of people who have bought the product. That is how I remembered it, I'll see if I can find the exact quote.

It's 50/50 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3198046&postcount=1

Let's say ED decides to do FC3-F18, they will have to make a whole new cockpit (code-wise) to make it non-clickable & intergrade every other system in it (sensors, hydraulics, electrics, weapons etc.).

I bet it would be to much coding work vs. the price they could sell it for & to few people buying it. Just my 2cents.

Anyway it ain't happening as per ED's statement. Personally I'm glad they made that decision;).

It's 50/50 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3198046&postcount=1

True, but we're looking at 50/50 of forum (online) visitors.

I've heard the same from other titles, the MP crowd is very very small compared to number of buyers.

Man... i understand your point... I was scared to get a full module... But now what i can tell you is that...

- First, all cliquable stuff is bindable on you joystick/hotas so easy to get same same feel as FC3

- 2) In mirage, you get auto align for INS... its an option. All MP server don't apply it but on buddyspike i fly with no ins only my knowledge of map and orientation sense...

-3) for most of full module came a "cheat" command pannel. You have full autostart procedure and full cutoff... Personnaly on MP when i have to moove fast, i use it... A10, mirage, and helos startup is as fast as a FC3 in those case... you just have to switch master arm on, and switch radar on... wich is... easy

So... No way making them non cliquable... Bind you keys... and use cheat command if you don't want to learn startup... it will do it for you

i am forcing myself but i can't feel i am fliying with a flight simulator when i use fc3 planes. and since there is not much thing to deal with, i easily get bored when going from somewhere to somewhere. it is not for me.

i am forcing myself but i can't feel i am fliying with a flight simulator when i use fc3 planes. and since there is not much thing to deal with, i easily get bored when going from somewhere to somewhere. it is not for me.

So you never flew FC2 and Lomac.

Is DCS your first simgame ever?

This topic got heated fast... I rather have more human players flying FC3 level aircrafts than merging against stupid AI with UFO physics. DCS is not an e-sport. I love full fidelity, but I don't mind that others fly simpler modules if they want. All different aircrafts zippin around online add to my overall experience, even if It might be a disadvantage for me in some situations.

I've decided that this thread should also have an outlet in the FC3 forum, come on in for a chat and a vote :) : https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=205882

We're in no way diametrically opposed to something like an FC module; but the issue with "downscaling" a full fidelity aircraft (and in fact, any complex jet aircraft for that matter) is that you need to abstract away a lot of functionality into "compiled" commands.

Systems like the radar in particular require a lot of fine commands and tuning to use effectively. Simplifying such a system is out of the question; so you'd have to try and "compile" together commands or sets of commands which could still allow you to use the radar yourself. Much of the same goes for many of the other functionality.

That said - flying the F-14 isn't hard from a systems learning standpoint. In fact, with JESTER, you don't even need to know how to lock targets or use the radar. In many ways, it's easier than using an FC level module for this reason.

If the FC3 users dont want the aircraft, then they just dont have to guy it. No one is holding their hand to thew fire. I own all of the WW2 and 4 of the modern aircraft modules, and have the F18 on pre-order and standing by on the F14. I dont want this sim because of its simplicity. If I want that I will go to P3D or Arma 3

We're in no way diametrically opposed to something like an FC module; but the issue with "downscaling" a full fidelity aircraft (and in fact, any complex jet aircraft for that matter) is that you need to abstract away a lot of functionality into "compiled" commands.

 

Systems like the radar in particular require a lot of fine commands and tuning to use effectively. Simplifying such a system is out of the question; so you'd have to try and "compile" together commands or sets of commands which could still allow you to use the radar yourself. Much of the same goes for many of the other functionality.

 

That said - flying the F-14 isn't hard from a systems learning standpoint. In fact, with JESTER, you don't even need to know how to lock targets or use the radar. In many ways, it's easier than using an FC level module for this reason.

Thank you for your answer! "Compiling" and also disabling (some) functionality would be the way for FC3, the ultimate control and thus ultimate performance should rightly belong to the full simulator mode.

For example, in full sim mode, one may be able to control radar antenna up/down, left/right and also fine tune the width of the beam by selecting how many bars to scan. In FC3 mode, the player would also have the up/down right/left controls but have (e.g.) only two options for beam width. TCS video would have manual control in full sim, but be always autoslaved to radar in FC3. Full sim mode would have soft lock mode, but FC3 would only have TWS/RWS and hard lock... I have not flown/studied the F-14 just yet (waiting patiently for your module :)) so can not go into every specific detail, but the general idea - compile (like you've said) and also remove (i.e. make inaccessible) the "less necessary functions". JESTER AI is of course something that I do not know, so if the above was logical for "downscaling" a full sim single seater, it may not apply to JESTER.

To continue this hypothetical "downscaling into FC3" conversation, imho keeping some partial cockpit clickability (is there such a word?)) is actually desirable in FC3 module. Memorising keyboard shortcuts (especially for less often used functions such as TV/NORM switch in F-14, or fuel quantity in F-15, or salvo mode selector switch in Su-25 ) should be optional as it is much easier to click that labelled selector in the pit than remembering to press "Ctrl+Alt+D" or something.

Anyways, the main feature of FC3 is Shift+L to turn on avionics and Ctrl/Alt+Home for left/right engines :D Joking aside, Win+Home autostart takes several long minutes and does go against FC philosophy quite a bit, not many new players would be willing to put up with it.

Thank you for your answer! "Compiling" and also disabling (some) functionality would be the way for FC3, the ultimate control and thus ultimate performance should rightly belong to the full simulator mode.

 

For example, in full sim mode, one may be able to control radar antenna up/down, left/right and also fine tune the width of the beam by selecting how many bars to scan. In FC3 mode, the player would also have the up/down right/left controls but have (e.g.) only two options for beam width. TCS video would have manual control in full sim, but be always autoslaved to radar in FC3. Full sim mode would have soft lock mode, but FC3 would only have TWS/RWS and hard lock... I have not flown/studied the F-14 just yet (waiting patiently for your module :)) so can not go into every specific detail, but the general idea - compile (like you've said) and also remove (i.e. make inaccessible) the "less necessary functions". JESTER AI is of course something that I do not know, so if the above was logical for "downscaling" a full sim single seater, it may not apply to JESTER.

 

To continue this hypothetical "downscaling into FC3" conversation, imho keeping some partial cockpit clickability (is there such a word?)) is actually desirable in FC3 module. Memorising keyboard shortcuts (especially for less often used functions such as TV/NORM switch in F-14, or fuel quantity in F-15, or salvo mode selector switch in Su-25 ) should be optional as it is much easier to click that labelled selector in the pit than remembering to press "Ctrl+Alt+D" or something.

 

Anyways, the main feature of FC3 is Shift+L to turn on avionics and Ctrl/Alt+Home for left/right engines :D Joking aside, Win+Home autostart takes several long minutes and does go against FC philosophy quite a bit, not many new players would be willing to put up with it.

So after the Developer told you this will not happen you keep dreaming. Nothing wrong with that...

But you could stop writing about it, because there is no point in repeating yourself again and again and claim to talk in the name of the FC or new DCS players ("...not many new players would be willing to put up with it.") How do you know that for a fact? To "proof" your point you postet Post-counts of the FC sub forums in the past to compare with other module sub-forums. I can do the same, there are over 48000 posts in the FC3 sub-forum but only 23 Voters on your poll there. That doesn't look like investing in your "dream" is financially worth it for ED or any 3rd Party developer.

You also tell us now that you dont want a DCS level module but not even a FC level modul. You want a module just to your taste!

- no complex avionics -> no DCS

- no remembering key shortcuts but clickable cockpit -> no FC

You want a simple module but also the "shiny clicky" cockpit because it's easier to remember/use than the FC style...to qoute you here, that "...does go against FC philosophy quite a bit..."

Sorry if this post sounds sarcastically or arrogant, i don't wanted to offend you but i was just....i don't even know the english word for discribing it, after reading your post.

So after the Developer told you this will not happen you keep dreaming.

The conversation is hypothetical at the moment, with the developer also (it seems to me) taking a hypothetical stance

"We're in no way diametrically opposed to something like an FC module; but ..."

With regards to "FC3 philosophy" - it is my opinion of course, but it is not about having keyboard shortcuts instead of clicky buttons. It is about having shallower learning curve and less overall complexity than full sim.

 

Anyways, the main feature of FC3 is Shift+L to turn on avionics and Ctrl/Alt+Home for left/right engines :D Joking aside, Win+Home autostart takes several long minutes and does go against FC philosophy quite a bit, not many new players would be willing to put up with it.

If a "new player" isn't patient enough to even put up with a long automated start then they have zero business buying a complex study sim level module..maybe WarThunder or Strike Fighters 2 is more their game.

shallower learning curve, well the viggen starts with 5 clicks, the harrier is like 10 or something, its really not rocket science to get the birds in the air and fly then, by which time you have learnt that.

then learn a similar amount per system.

after that there is no simple learn for skill :)

but seriously, this sounds like the wrong sim for you, like above I don't want to sound rude, but you keep just wanting a simple arcade flight sim, to the point of starting another thread to to rant about the same, its fine you love what you like, but I'm sorry I don't get this simple lark on a modern learning/thinking mans sim

No :thumbup:

No :thumbup:

:megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol: I wish rep was still a thing

Bad idea is bad. Get off the stage.

I could elaborate, but even I think arguing this is pointless. It's just bad. Booooooo

I personally think that not working on any more fc3 style modules for the foreseeable future is a good thing. Now, I don't think the fc3 are by any means 'arcade' - that in my mind is not the way we should see those modules, after all they sit in the same sim and though 'dumbed down' they still take time to master. I'm not against them at all, I'd just rather devs spend their limited time and resources on full modules. Now if there was some research that genuinely proved that fc aircraft would have a massive impact on the player base then I'd be more than happy.

The reason though I think it's a good thing, is that I feel people are put off the 'full fidelity' modules far too easily, there's soo much talk about the time needed to learn the aircraft - and that is true if you want to learn everything about it. The M2k for example, I taught someone how to do basic flight (startup - to landing) and then basic use of combat systems in approx 2hours. In fact from the various ts's I've been in, most of the people who have questions on certain aspects of the sim are asking about fundamentals which are shared across all aircraft, for example: Explaining how a radar works like a cone (to put it simply) and that's why they can't see an aircraft. Not which button to press to do whatever.

:megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol: I wish rep was still a thing

The whole thread needs deleting to make sure it NEVER happens :lol:

The whole thread needs deleting to make sure it NEVER happens :lol:

Your opinion allowed only mindset I guess?

Your opinion allowed only mindset I guess?

Its called in Britain banter dont take it to heart. I see what the original post is saying :smilewink:

These kind of threads make me think of somebody walking into a pub and ordering nonalcoholic beer....

It's the "sell it twice" comment that doesn't work.

You can't develop a full module then just remove parts and call it FC3. This is completely over simplified in your mind. You don't just simply get half an accurate module without effort. You've had to start the baseline at the complex version, to get the simple, then you have to design how to make it simpler and fit with a legacy game, it doesn't simply appear. Imagine a "simplified version" of the F-14 radar. It would have to be reinvented. You have to decide how to fit all the light switches as one setting and not a rotary dial or several. Look at every button, design in as a simple. Then imagine the moaning that would ensure when someone says that X system should have more options and be closer to the full module.

This isn't just a can of worms, it's concerning. I can well believe there's more than one person who wants this, no doubt at all. But your method to get what you want is to not bother learning it in depth, and using the simplifications in the engine like start up, game mode and so on.

I've posted a similar thread in the F/A-18 forum and do realise that this topic is sacrilege :), but imho it would be a great addition to DCS if "full fat" modules also had FC3 versions. ED bundled their Ka-50 and A-10C with "game" versions, but imho it's the FC3 versions that are really needed. There are a few reasons:

 

1)Not everybody is willing to learn the full set of real procedures, but a lot of people are interested in experiencing the flight dynamics and air combat in some particular aircraft.

 

2)Having a FC3 version makes returning to a module easier, if one had a few months away from DCS.

 

3)If I am not interested in the plane enough to learn all of its systems, I do not buy it. In my case, I like the Mirages, Mig-21s, F-5s and the Viggens - just not enough to learn all their systems. This is further compounded by point number 2) which is only more likely to happen here. BUT! If FC3 versions of these planes were bundled with the full sim modules (or available separately), I would be more likely to buy them. Some would become a definite buy (M2000, Viggen and Harrier) in my case.

 

4)From the developer's view point, FC3 version also makes sense as this would allow to sell their module to a broader audience and maybe even "sell it twice" - like ED is selling FC3 and its standalone planes.

 

Here is a thread just to show that I am not alone in such thinking: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=112030

 

Cheers!

 

PS I do own Ka-50, A-10C and the Huey (as well as Falcon BMS), I have studied them in sufficient depth to complete several of their Campaigns. So I am not a pure FC3 guy who "doesn't get" the attraction of a study sim.

:megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol: I wish rep was still a thing

Bad idea is bad. Get off the stage.

 

I could elaborate, but even I think arguing this is pointless. It's just bad. Booooooo

The whole thread needs deleting to make sure it NEVER happens :lol:

These kind of threads make me think of somebody walking into a pub and ordering nonalcoholic beer....

That's cool guys, if nothing else it goes to show that even if a cheaper FC3 F-14 was available, there would still be plenty of hardcore market left for the full sim clickable version. Passion's good

You can't develop a full module then just remove parts and call it FC3.

 

Imagine a "simplified version" of the F-14 radar. It would have to be reinvented.

We've discussed this exact issue in the general FC3 topic https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3450169#post3450169, here are some quotes to save me retyping the answers: