Air-Air Refueling

I've done all my AAR with a X52 hotas no problem. I guess the curves are you main problem.

 

Also, it is not said enough. DON'T CHASE THE BOOM! Fly with the tanker.

Good to know that Eviscerador. What curve are you using for X52 hotas

Deadzone of 1 and curve of 15 in all axis.

Agreed it also depends on your hardware. Refueling with the warthog stick and gimbal was a pain, I would end up tired after a while. Made it very difficult because you can't make small tiny adjustments.

 

Now I'm using a vpc warBRD base and grip and I barely touch the stick when I fly. The tiniest and I mean smallest movement gives you a response and then I tried refueling with this new setup and it was still difficult but I connected and stayed connected longer. Much easier to just nudge the stick a teeny little bit for a response.

And I coulda sworn that was *exactly* what people said about Warthog over Cougar back in the day... ;)

Anyway, I've seen people go from horrible to competent in a matter of weeks by a) practice and b) adjusting curves and axis settings, using X52 and Warthog.

Me, I'm certainly looking forward to the much praised Virpil base at some point in the future, but honestly, the Warthog hasn't degraded *that* badly just because there's a new toy around.

F10 shows ground speed, which is almost completely useless.

Aside from the fact that you can get an idea of closure speed, and comparing it to indicated you can have a very accurate estimate of the tankers speed. Sure, completely useless /s.

Aside from the fact that you can get an idea of closure speed, and comparing it to indicated you can have a very accurate estimate of the tankers speed. Sure, completely useless /s.

Very accurate, that's quite a claim. I look forward to your explanation on how to do this.

Very accurate, that's quite a claim. I look forward to your explanation on how to do this.

Come on guys, don't argue on that for nothing, it's anyways useless to know the tanker's speed, final.

Just locate it with your radar or Tacan, intercept it, as it gets closer you can easily gauge it's speed as you see him coming in fast or slow visualy and it's a matter of using our brains, we know the tanker is not going supersonic or a Cesna speed so don'T try to reach him going mach 1.8 if he's at 5 nm or going 200 KIAS if he's 15 nm away.

So basicly it's just like intercepting anyone flying on a purblic server to fly formation with, adjust speed as it cloose in, while flying formation on his left wing you can then easily gauge and discover his speed IF you really feelmore comfortable with. In any cases i personaly don't even gauge his speed or even pay attention to my speed, i just fly formation with him and just pay attention if i slow down or gain speed watching the tanker, once i'm on pre-contact, if the basket/tanker comes close to me, i'm faster, if it goes away, i'm slower, easy as 1.2.3, just rock the throttle to keep the spot once connected as you eyeball a spot on the tanker's wing to see if you slow down or gain speed, no need to watch your speed. This way if the dumbass AI decide to turn you can easily anticipate it and folow, as you're watching his wing and you'll see it bank, if you watch your speed, it just breaks your concentration for nothing. Like when you'Re flying formation with someone, you watch your lead, not your speed gauge.

Just locate it with your radar or Tacan, intercept it, as it gets closer you can easily gauge it's speed as you see him coming in fast or slow visualy and it's a matter of using our brains, we know the tanker is not going supersonic or a Cesna speed so don'T try to reach him going mach 1.8 if he's at 5 nm or going 200 KIAS if he's 15 nm away.

 

So basicly it's just like intercepting anyone flying on a purblic server to fly formation with, adjust speed as it cloose in, while flying formation on his left wing you can then easily gauge and discover his speed IF you really feelmore comfortable with. In any cases i personaly don't even gauge his speed or even pay attention to my speed, i just fly formation with him and just pay attention if i slow down or gain speed watching the tanker, once i'm on pre-contact, if the basket/tanker comes close to me, i'm faster, if it goes away, i'm slower, easy as 1.2.3, just rock the throttle to keep the spot once connected as you eyeball a spot on the tanker's wing to see if you slow down or gain speed, no need to watch your speed. This way if the dumbass AI decide to turn you can easily anticipate it and folow, as you're watching his wing and you'll see it bank, if you watch your speed, it just breaks your concentration for nothing. Like when you'Re flying formation with someone, you watch your lead, not your speed gauge.

very well put. Indeed, AAR is nothing but a visual thing. You don‘t make it happen by looking at your altitude, speed or heading. You just look at the tanker to judge and adjust your closure rate and position. Nothing more.

And as everybody keep saying: practice, practice, practice... keep the throttle moving...ignore the basket....and it will come.

Very accurate, that's quite a claim. I look forward to your explanation on how to do this.

I wasn't trying to start an argument like the other user claimed. But the KC-130 by default has a 325 ground speed for tanking and it only goes up to like 336 or something. The viking can be set a little higher 340-350gs. Knowing that, on your approach to the tanker. At some point on the approach compare your own groundspeed to your KIAS and you can have a rough idea of what the tankers KIAS is going to be. At about 4NM to the tanker start slowing your closure rate to roughly 60kts overtake. At about .8NM - 1NM drop the closure rate to about 30kts. That should get you close enough for good visual references on overtake. It should allow you to form up on the tanker without overshooting.

very well put. Indeed, AAR is nothing but a visual thing. You don‘t make it happen by looking at your altitude, speed or heading. You just look at the tanker to judge and adjust your closure rate and position. Nothing more.

 

And as everybody keep saying: practice, practice, practice... keep the throttle moving...ignore the basket....and it will come.

It helps having an idea of the tankers speed when approaching for RV was my point. You can't look at a tanker visually and tell from a couple miles out.

It helps having an idea of the tankers speed when approaching for RV was my point. You can't look at a tanker visually and tell from a couple miles out.

As Doum76 already said: We know the tanker goes neither supersonic nor does it fly at the speed of a C172. Regardless of the type of tanker aircraft we can expect an IAS in the range of 200-300 kts for most of the altitudes. Knowing that should be absolutely sufficient to intercept it properly. It‘s about judgement derived from experience. Sure you can compare numbers and your GS with your IAS, there is nothing wrong with that. But I personally don‘t think you need to do. The only number I look at when outside of the visual range is the TACAN range. The speed at which this runs down gives me a good idea of my closing rate.

I wasn't trying to start an argument like the other user claimed.

I just said that because i didn't wanted this thread to end up like a thread i created yesterday and wasn't fun. :)

It helps having an idea of the tankers speed when approaching for RV was my point. You can't look at a tanker visually and tell from a couple miles out.

What i simpy meant was, when you go to rejoin the Tanker, is like when you go to land at the airfiel, the airfield doesn't have a speed (ok now you'Re gonna tell me, what if it'S a carrier, then i'll say, touché :)), right? How you know it comes closer, the Tacan, Waypoint distance diminish or raise, so you know you're getting closer or further away, that all matters. Once you get in visual, you don't even need the tacan distance anymore, when visual, all you need is judgement in my own opinion, airfield gets bigger, you get closer, the tanker gets closer, it gets bigger, it'S up gauge how fast it's gett bigger/coning closer to adjust your speed. Ok now you'Re gonna tell me, well, if it's pitch black, you can't visualy see if it gets bigger/closer... well, i'll say, turn your NVG on. :)

I was just trying to tell you not to get a wrong/bad habbit, so if you get on a server that doesn't allow stuff to be seen from F-10 map view, then you'll be able to get to the tanker. In other words, rejoining the tanker is not like to conduct an interception of an unkown aircraft after a scramble, which everything matters if i am not mistaken, where you need to be on precise spot at precise distance trying to avoid being seen etc... that is another story that i haven,T explored yet.

I ever ever used any tanker's speed to find them, refuel, and god knows hoe many i'Ve done, mid-air refueling, landings, touch and go, carrier trap is the things i like most, so if i can do it as clumsy i am, anyone can, even Mr. Magoo :)

But again, as we often say, it's your Sim and you do how ever you want it, was just trying to help. :)

I wasn't trying to start an argument like the other user claimed.

No problem :thumbup:

I have to confess I've done very little playing with the mission editor, but I do remember putting a tanker in at one point at something like 300kts, 30,000ft. Not realising this was TAS, it ended up being loaded in with something like an IAS of 180kts, which KC135 doesn't appreciate!

It would be nice if you could switch between TAS and IAS like you can between AGL and MSL.

No problem :thumbup:

 

I have to confess I've done very little playing with the mission editor, but I do remember putting a tanker in at one point at something like 300kts, 30,000ft. Not realising this was TAS, it ended up being loaded in with something like an IAS of 180kts, which KC135 doesn't appreciate!

 

It would be nice if you could switch between TAS and IAS like you can between AGL and MSL.

Totaly agree, would avoid the back and forth in mission editor and laod the mission to see how fast it makes it goes in-game... reason why i always copied/paste my tankers from a mission to another, too laysy to adjust it each time. :music_whistling:

I found that i can tank a lot better in Hornet than I can in AV8B for example. Some of this is down to the fact that the probe is on the nose and in sight but the two biggest things that made huge improvements for me were:

High end HOTAS (went from X-55 to Virpil T-50 stick and throttle (stick most important but throttle fine control also contributed)

Using VR - depth perception a big factor, particularly for that final 20ft before you hook up to the basket, and staying aligned to the tanker once connected

I found that i can tank a lot better in Hornet than I can in AV8B for example. Some of this is down to the fact that the probe is on the nose and in sight but the two biggest things that made huge improvements for me were:

 

High end HOTAS (went from X-55 to Virpil T-50 stick and throttle (stick most important but throttle fine control also contributed)

 

Using VR - depth perception a big factor, particularly for that final 20ft before you hook up to the basket, and staying aligned to the tanker once connected

Yep! totally agree. :thumbup:

I just said that because i didn't wanted this thread to end up like a thread i created yesterday and wasn't fun. :)

 

 

 

 

 

What i simpy meant was, when you go to rejoin the Tanker, is like when you go to land at the airfiel, the airfield doesn't have a speed (ok now you'Re gonna tell me, what if it'S a carrier, then i'll say, touché :)), right? How you know it comes closer, the Tacan, Waypoint distance diminish or raise, so you know you're getting closer or further away, that all matters. Once you get in visual, you don't even need the tacan distance anymore, when visual, all you need is judgement in my own opinion, airfield gets bigger, you get closer, the tanker gets closer, it gets bigger, it'S up gauge how fast it's gett bigger/coning closer to adjust your speed. Ok now you'Re gonna tell me, well, if it's pitch black, you can't visualy see if it gets bigger/closer... well, i'll say, turn your NVG on. :)

 

 

I was just trying to tell you not to get a wrong/bad habbit, so if you get on a server that doesn't allow stuff to be seen from F-10 map view, then you'll be able to get to the tanker. In other words, rejoining the tanker is not like to conduct an interception of an unkown aircraft after a scramble, which everything matters if i am not mistaken, where you need to be on precise spot at precise distance trying to avoid being seen etc... that is another story that i haven,T explored yet.

 

 

 

I ever ever used any tanker's speed to find them, refuel, and god knows hoe many i'Ve done, mid-air refueling, landings, touch and go, carrier trap is the things i like most, so if i can do it as clumsy i am, anyone can, even Mr. Magoo :)

 

 

But again, as we often say, it's your Sim and you do how ever you want it, was just trying to help. :)

I never use the F10 map for anything if I can help it. I don't use the tankers speed to find them. Because I build missions and have refueled hundreds if not thousands of times, I know generally the speed they are traveling and usually use RV Charlie or Delta from NATO STANDARD ATP-3.3.4.2 AIR-TO-AIR REFUELLING ATP-56 (modified for use in DCS).

I don't know where you got the idea that I use the F10 map, or that I have bad habbits lol. :lol:

I never use the F10 map for anything if I can help it. I don't use the tankers speed to find them. Because I build missions and have refueled hundreds if not thousands of times, I know generally the speed they are traveling and usually use RV Charlie or Delta from NATO STANDARD ATP-3.3.4.2 AIR-TO-AIR REFUELLING ATP-56 (modified for use in DCS).

 

I don't know where you got the idea that I use the F10 map, or that I have bad habbits lol. :lol:

Just went a few pages up and got it all confused when you said it helped to know the tanker speed for RV, was webweaver40 telling that to Flamin Squirrel not you. :)

Just went a few pages up and got it all confused when you said it helped to know the tanker speed for RV, was webweaver40 telling that to Flamin Squirrel not you. :)

Fair enough. No worries! :thumbup:

Holy shit! break through time for me. I have been flying combat flight sims from the age of 16 on my mums Pentium 486, EF2000 was the first I tried air to air refuelling, could never get it, TAW and F22 next and never could and did try, but back then there was no youtube or social media, there was only trying, Falcon 4 was next and wow I spent some time in that sim, but could never actually pull off air to air refuelling.

I am tonight after 27 years of trying confident enough to say I have cracked it, I can now refuel as needed, it is one of the most satisfying things I have ever achieved. Thanks to all the community's videos on the tube, I couldn't have realised where I was going wrong with out them, also I have run high end Thrustmaster gear from day one (Starting with the WCSMk2 and FCS on up through all models) I don't know if I could do it without the Thrustmaster Warthog, I have been battling Windows 10 issues and calibration issues with my 15 year old Cougar and a newer Cougar with the NTX (?) mods? and it was such a hassle I just went for the Warthog, its nice, I wouldn't want to be without it.

So keep that story in mind guys to maybe keep it in context, its not an easy task until you get it, like algebra, or chess, or motor cross.

But I am pretty happy with myself! If I can do it you can!

The Warthog is a terrible stick, so I tip my hat to you for managing to AA refuel with it!

Not wanting to flame at all but I have as I said used Thrustmaster gear since day one and the Warthog for me is a cumulation of all it.

Other brands are probably at least as good, I don't have any data points on it, haven't used any of it, but Thrustmaster I have, right through the ages and it has for me been beyond excellent.

But this isn't about that, its about the fact that, refuelling, yes you can do it. :thumbup:

Not wanting to flame at all but I have as I said used Thrustmaster gear since day one and the Warthog for me is a cumulation of all it.

Other brands are probably at least as good, I don't have any data points on it, haven't used any of it, but Thrustmaster I have, right through the ages and it has for me been beyond excellent.

But this isn't about that, its about the fact that, refuelling, yes you can do it. :thumbup:

No matter the hardware you have, if you can do it and works like a charm with you, that's all matters. :)

:music_whistling:

Not wanting to flame at all but I have as I said used Thrustmaster gear since day one and the Warthog for me is a cumulation of all it.

Other brands are probably at least as good, I don't have any data points on it, haven't used any of it, but Thrustmaster I have, right through the ages and it has for me been beyond excellent.

But this isn't about that, its about the fact that, refuelling, yes you can do it. :thumbup:

No offence taken!

Thrustmaster market the Warthog as a high end product, so I just felt conned when I opened it up the stick to see how cheap and nasty it was. When people praise it, I can't help do a PSA to let them know; and that there are far better sticks out there. Glad you like it though!

Anywhoo, carry on regarding AA refueling :music_whistling:

I posted this in the DCS 2.5/Bugs forum, but today's patch makes the S-3 take a steep dive after you make contact. It will impact into the water in the PG and Caucasus instant action missions.

I posted this in the DCS 2.5/Bugs forum, but today's patch makes the S-3 take a steep dive after you make contact. It will impact into the water in the PG and Caucasus instant action missions.

Not for me. I updated and refueled fine behind the S-3 just moments ago. No strange behaviour observed. I flew a self-made mission in PG though, not an instant action mission. Just saying the S-3 itself seems to be ok.

(and all that with a 10 year old TM Warthog...:music_whistling: cheers, Flamin :smilewink:)