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FIAT G-91


Xilon_x

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Oh, it's a bit more capable than i thought. But neither the Y, nor the R4 did have an RWR, right?

 

 

They did not. The comparison with the early Skyhawks is actually perfect, the difference of course is that the A-4 was developed a lot more than the Gina over time.

 

 

Also I feel like people tend to expect too much out of many early Cold War planes. To name a few, the Sabre flew in the Indo-Pakistani war in 1971 along or against Mig 21s and F-104s, the F-100 served in the ANG until 1979 and in the Danish Air Force until the early 80s, the F-84F remained in service of various NATO air forces until the early/mid 70s, and the Dassault Super Mystere served the AdA until the mid 70. In many ways, the G91 is about as complex and capable an aircraft as those four.


Edited by TLTeo
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Unfortunately you are right, remember its first flight was in 1954, operative from 1958. (R version) [...]

[...] Also I feel like people tend to expect too much out of many early Cold War planes. [...]

Thanks for the answers.

I think TLTeo is right: At least i had always considered RWR a must have for early cold war jets, but that's because DCS has so many more modern units (both air, land and sea), that you always pit those against them subconsciously...

Now that i think of it, i would really love to see DCS getting more fleshed out with early cold war units, so these early jets could feel at home...

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G.91: designation that identifies the prototype and 27 pre-series specimens;

G.91PAN: designation attributed to the pre-series specimens that were suitably modified for use in the National Aerobatic Team; later, due to the Patrol's needs, machines of the R version were adapted to this standard. These aircraft remained in service with the Frecce Tricolori from 1964 to 1981, when they were replaced by the Aermacchi MB-339;

G.91R: four of the pre-series machines were modified in the extreme bow, to allow the installation of the photographic apparatuses;

G.91R / 1: first version of the series; it was produced in 23 specimens, armed with 4 Browning M3 machine guns of 12.7 mm and two subalar piers for a nominal load of 900 kilos, but effective of just 450. Intended for the Italian Air Force;

G.91R / 1A: lot of 25 aircraft destined, also in this case to the A.M .; equipped with the instrumentation foreseen on the R / 3 version;

G.91R / 1B: new lot destined for the A.M .; equipped with further updated instrumentation and improved airbrakes;

G.91R / 2: designation envisaged for a version intended for France which was not implemented;

G.91R / 3: was the model requested by Germany, which adopted 2 DEFA M552 30 mm guns and four attachment points, which allowed the increase of the transportable war load without drastically affecting the range. The avionics had also been improved. From Fiat it was produced in 50 units, another 294 were produced under license in Germany;

G.91R / 4: it was a hybrid version, which had the arming of R-1 and the pylons of R-3. 50 aircraft were built that should have been used by Greece and Turkey; as the supply did not materialize, the aircraft were withdrawn from Germany,

and then it was resold 40 to Portugal;

G.91R / 5: proposed version to Norway; the autonomy was expected to increase to 1 500 km. It was not realized;

G.91R / 6: another version left at the design stage. He should have had a reinforced cart and be equipped with a Doppler navigation system;

G.91S: project for an unrealized version destined for Switzerland; it included a wing with an arrow of 38 ° and an Orpheus B.Or.12 engine with a 3 200 kg thrust;

G.91T: designation attributed to the first two pre-series aircraft of the two-seater version. The changes, due to the installation of the passenger compartment capable of accommodating the pilot and the instructor, involved extending the fuselage (1.40 m) and the highest vertical stabilizer

G.91T / 1: training two-seater, in the configuration for the Italian Air Force. 101 copies produced;

G.91T / 2: two-seater version intended for France. Also in this case, mass production did not materialize;

G.91T / 3: two-seater in configuration for Germany. 66 specimens were produced, of which 22 were made by Dornier;

G.91T / 4: advanced proposal of Fiat initiative, for a training version for F-104 pilots with NASARR radar;

G-91Y: twin-engine variant, the result of an extensive review of the project. Equipped with two engines, it did not achieve the same commercial success as the G.91R. Often, during the firing of the weapons, there was the stall of the compressor of some engine and therefore its arrest.

G.93: (unrealized) project of 1959 for a version of G.91 equipped with version BOr.12 of the Orpheus engine equipped with afterburner (30.3 kN of dry thrust and 36.34 kN with afterburner.

 

 

WHY THE GR-4 VERSION?


Edited by Xilon_x
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They did not. The comparison with the early Skyhawks is actually perfect, the difference of course is that the A-4 was developed a lot more than the Gina over time.

 

 

Also I feel like people tend to expect too much out of many early Cold War planes. To name a few, the Sabre flew in the Indo-Pakistani war in 1971 along or against Mig 21s and F-104s, the F-100 served in the ANG until 1979 and in the Danish Air Force until the early 80s, the F-84F remained in service of various NATO air forces until the early/mid 70s, and the Dassault Super Mystere served the AdA until the mid 70. In many ways, the G91 is about as complex and capable an aircraft as those four.

 

 

The expectations arent high if you consider the threats they would have faced during their DOI, and during the aircrafts prime. Past a certain point a aircraft simply becomes obsolete agianst with, if they aren't at least upgraded to keep up with the times assuming direct replacement is not yet feasible

 

Pakistan... well they were just a poor country that had to made do with what they had.

and even then sabres was basically relegated to ground attack for the most part.

 

 

With F100's in the US serving until 1979 , its was only ANG, not active duty service ( Active duty were last retired in 1972) . ANG are basically state militias,/ ITs basically a reserve sort of unit, and they get hand me downs. Very used, and at times obsolete equipment. Only some units retained F100s, in 1979 the first F16's began coming into operational service, which allowed many ANG to get F4 Phantoms and A7 corsairs passed down., before gradually in the 80s going into 90s finally getting F16A's.

 

IN the Danish armed forces the F100 was adopted mostly as a nuclear bomber. ANd this was in 1959, at a time when it was releavnt. They waited so long before replacing them sadly due to lack of adequate funding of being able to replace it sooner, and they finally replaced Hun along with Star fighter with the F16 during the 80s.

 

But remember even the F100D's were fitted with Radar warning receivers, and according to the manual could also carry external counter measure pods.So in a way even the Hun aged better than the gina, but it too would have been still horribly obsolete by the 1970s, and not suited for conventional conflict against the USSR. Thats exactly why they were all relegated to ANG, and gradually retired. Hell thats why the requirement for stuff like the A10 came up. A1 worked great against Insurgents in South Vietnam, in uncontested airspace and no serious air defenses, but they wanted something like the A1, but more survivable in a high threat environment, and jet powered.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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Thanks for the answers.

I think TLTeo is right: At least i had always considered RWR a must have for early cold war jets, but that's because DCS has so many more modern units (both air, land and sea), that you always pit those against them subconsciously...

Now that i think of it, i would really love to see DCS getting more fleshed out with early cold war units, so these early jets could feel at home...

 

It depends how early. If early to mid-late 50s, no rwr is ok

 

by early to mid 1960s time period alone you already have sam's like the long range SA2's, mid range SA3's and down low ZSU 23 Shilkas in operational service, which already makes RWR a necessary senor, and certainly nice to haves if you can also couple it with Chaff dispenser and ECM pods.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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An R-4 is definally the version I would prefer in DCS, it is an awesome turnfighter (pilots said it was way better than F-86E), could carry AS-20 air to ground missiles, it can be used as a bush plane, can carry AIM-9Bs (useless as F but anyways) and if you remove 2 pilons you get the italian version (R-1B).

It's more or less like an early A-4.

 

Y version is cool as well but is more outdated then the predecessor compared to the period of service (non radar, non countermeasures, non rwr in the 70s).

 

YAY MCLOS missles... Oh wait... We already have those in the viggen and everyone hates them!

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YAY MCLOS missles... Oh wait... We already have those in the viggen and everyone hates them!

 

 

Yea because you have better guided munitions available for itand the viggen is more modern aircraft from a later time period

 

In the absese of more sophisticated guided muntions the mclos type missiles dont seem like such a bad option.

 

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YAY MCLOS missles... Oh wait... We already have those in the viggen and everyone hates them!

 

What? I love them they're so funny once you get kills with them

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Ironically that's probably the same people who keep on trying to tell me that the Viggen in DCS was a 1970s plane.

 

because it basally is.....

 

The only real difference is that in the early 90s, Viggen was upgraded with a new off the shelf CPU ( no visible difference), and made compatible with newer RB15 missile, and those Bk90 glide bombs. Woopteedoo. So much different. Dont use those weapns and what you have is basically 70s-80s plane.

 

 

Its like saying the F14B is a 90s plane just because you can arm it with Lantirn. When you do it technically is, Take off lantirn and its can be 80s plane. ( the control panel also disappears).

 

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I'm not saying it can't stand in as similar to the early versions, just that it technically isn't and that very concept of 'close enough' makes people break out pitchforks for a lot of other modules, oddly.

 

In other news I found this - admittedly not very good, since I had to hurry - picture from a G.91 cockpit in my photo archive:

DSC-0492.jpg

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  • 4 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

They did not, they only evaluated it together with the F-5 and A-4 in the early 60s in the Fast FAC/CAS roles. They concluded that all three aircraft would be very well suited to the role, but eventually the whole thing fell apart because of the Army and USAF disagreeing on various things.

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Well, never was on my list of absolute favourites, but as it was part of my country's Air Force ( Força Aérea Portuguesa ) here it goes :

 

It had its path at our Air Force, as a trainer, recognition, and light air-to-ground attacker (in close air support) from 1965 to 1993.

 

I believe the Fiat G-91 saw some action at the Portuguese Colonial War in 1960s / 1970s in African continent.

(Because our main jet at the time - the F-86 Sabre could not be "officially" employed with the USA support on that conflict.)

 

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  • 1 year later...

year old bump but i do not care

 

G91s were actually more versatile than what people believes: 
 

G91s had bombing or strike assist computers 

G91 R1B had the capability of carrying AS-30L saclos agms

Some G91s had an An/APA 90 indicator which warned the pilot of a friendly or foe aircraft inbound

zuLkX7e.png

 

 

there are also many rumors about the G91 R5 and R6 actually existing, this one in particular is from a russian magazine image.png.229f87a9347221140b78880e314bc8

"Finally, in 1964, FIAT manufacturer issued 25 vehicles, designated as G.91R/6. Landing gear were improved one more time and wider air brakes were installed. As export G.91R/3 for Germany, the most of these aircraft were fitted with 4 hardpoints instead of 2, which allowed to increase combat load twice. 2 additional hardpoints were developed during serial production. Also avionics was changed the same as for German aircraft. Fuel capacity was increased from 352 to 372 gallons. JATO allowed to reduced G.91R/6 take-off run to 100 m. Supplying of G.91R for Italian Air Force included only described above G.91R/1 and G.91R/6" source Авиаколлекция 10. 2015 Истребитель-Бомбардировщик Fiat G.91, p.11

 

and

 

image.png.33a85890d59d2575f8c44e87633fe4

source The Fiat G.91 by Giorgio Apostolo

 

 

 

For the G91 YS, imo its the better choice over any of the G91 Rs or the Y having 2 potent afterburners and sporting many improvements from the last generation, there are even conspiracies or rumors of its testbed having similar fancy improvements like a full fletched radar system including complete ballistic computers but no RWR

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I would truly love to have this aircraft in DCS, I am quite tired of the super fancy no opponent super planes on DCS..

Some mud moving on a mans plane would be lovely, Specially when we cant have the scooter made into an oficial module.

 


Edited by Baco
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I think this is a good candidate for new 3rd part IndiaFoxtrotEcho, which include members of Frecce Tricolori Virtuali who created the great MB 339 freeware, and are now making it into a full on paid module. I do remember they did start working on a G91 some months ago too.

I'm also among the people who are super bored of the current crop of advanced multirole fighters from late 90s-2000s-and even beyond. This thing is right up my alley!

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  • 5 months later...
On 6/12/2019 at 2:13 PM, TLTeo said:

 

 

The outer wing pylons of the R4 and Y were all wired for AIM-9Bs. The only G-91s that definitely couldn't carry it were the R-1 and T. I'm not saying it was an amazing fighter, but in an all out war it wouldn't have been entirely defenseless either.

 

 

That said, given that it was designed to be small and cheap it ended up being a fairly limited airframe. It was meant to be operated from unprepared strips near the front line, and it would have been ok at that, but it definitely didn't age as well as the F-5 or Skyhawk. It doesn't help that Italy obviously had less money to invest in its own light fighter bomber programs than the US did.

All the 4 pylons were wired for the AIM-9Bs on the R4 ( at least outer pylons for the R3 and Y )


Edited by mayo25
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