CCIP mode incorrect functionality

It's come to my attention whilst perusing the literature for the Harrier that the CCIP mode actually functions incorrectly.

 

First off my source for this information - https://mega.nz/#!LBsVVK7J!FqbjmbwI5aTvEPI2thD-eJtEm3aS_LSkyJECe_1Iv_I

Page 2-70 - section 2.5.3.1

 

This screenshot was lifted straight from the manual, it gives an overview of the correct functionality;

 

As one can see the 'impact point' is displayed on the HUD even when the true impact point is outside of the HUD.

 

However this is not the case in game as you can see in the screenshot below.

 

From what I've read the CCIP piper should never be off the HUD in CCIP mode. It is always visible. It simply sits at the bottom of the HUD with the reflected cue and dashed bomb fall line indicating it is outside of HUD FOV. Whilst it is sitting at the bottom of the HUD this is how targets are designated for CCIP-to-AUTO releases. The piper is placed over a target, weapon release is held and the aircraft initiates a CCRP drop.

 

As for real life HUD footage showing such this is the only one I've found so far - skip to 6:32

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by al531246
Added annotated version of the manual illustration

My understanding is the entire ARBS is going to be reworked before release which would cover this. Though I agree as it currently stands it does not function correctly.

 

-Jenrick

Not only the avionics of weapon release needs work, but mechanical as well. When carrying multiple bombs on a single station the lowest station of the rack is station 1. On any TER/MER station 1 is the lowest station and is always released first. Currently in game, station 1 ( the lowest station) is released last. Its backwards.

maybe being dumb here, but I thought you need an angle of attck? say 20 deg down for example.

then the piper would be visible on target, and its what the first part of the manual actually says?

your picture shows you flying straight, with a down bubble towards tgt it would be visible?

well that's how I fly it

Hi al531246,

 

I read your post with interest but doesn't the image you provided stipulate the opposite? Maybe it's just me but the elements I highlighted below seem to suggest its working correctly from a HUD FOV visibility perspective. Maybe I'm not reading correctly but just a thought. Cheers.

 

SUNTSAG, it might be confusing if you did not read the whole document. The dashed line symbols mean designator is outside of FOV. That is pointed in the picture.
Edited February 7, 2018 by Vatikus

Hi al531246,

 

I read your post with interest but doesn't the image you provided stipulate the opposite? Maybe it's just me but the elements I highlighted below seem to suggest its working correctly from a HUD FOV visibility perspective. Maybe I'm not reading correctly but just a thought. Cheers.

 

The thing is that in the picture, the cockpit frame is not shown. Therefore you see more than a real pilot would, hence the real FOV is different from the picture shown.

The thing is that in the picture, the cockpit frame is not shown. Therefore you see more than a real pilot would, hence the real FOV is different from the picture shown.

No, I think, the pictures show just what is visible at the HUD to the pilot.

 

First pic shows that the actual CCIP cross would be below the HUD and thus, the dashed cross, aka "reflected pipper" at the bottom of the FOV is shown.

 

The pilot can not accurately place the actual CCIP cross onto the target (that factory) as it is not visible. So he places instead the dashed reflected pipper at the target and depresses the pickle button. This switches the dashed cross to the dashed diamond to indicate the switch to auto mode. Now the pilot can furhter maneuer the aircraft, even with the diamond disappearing beneath the HUD, and as long as he meets the CCRP criteria, the bomb will be released eventually according to the designated CCRP target (the factory).

Hi al531246,

 

I read your post with interest but doesn't the image you provided stipulate the opposite? Maybe it's just me but the elements I highlighted below seem to suggest its working correctly from a HUD FOV visibility perspective. Maybe I'm not reading correctly but just a thought. Cheers.

 

The image is a bit misleading, they could have illustrated it better. The image in scene 1 makes it seems as tho the CCIP cross your seeing is the impact point - it is not. What you're seeing is the CCIP cross sitting at the bottom of the HUD. The CCIP cross cannot go off the end of HUD in the AV-8B. I've tried added some annotations to the image, let me know if it makes sense / doesn't.

 

Yep you are right.

 

I have already pointed it out here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3310344#post3310344

 

I also added video footage to prove it.

 

Honestly, it's very disappointing that something as essential as bombing modes doesn't work as intended in the Harrier, taking into account the massive info available everywhere.

 

Regards

RAZBAM, can we get an acknowledgment or something about this error?

I´ve found an interesting video supporting your claims.

 

You can see some HUD footage where the dashed line is always visible in CCIPand the dashed cross hair the same, even at very high roll angles.

 

There are several clips where you can see the cross hair always visible, dashed out of OFV and not dashed inside FOV and the fall line always dashed.

 

Is very interesting.

 

LToh6Rdfsc8

RAZBAM, can we get an acknowledgment or something about this error?

1+ any comments?

I´ve found an interesting video supporting your claims.

 

Excellent find. In fact at 3:24 you can see a perfect example of how CCIP-to-AUTO works. The false impact piper becomes the designation point for what is now a CCRP release.

 

Really hope RAZBAM address this.

I find the whole CCRP odd in Harrier as it is very difficult to get directions where to fly to get bombs correctly dropped.

 

Instead in a Su-25T it is super easy (can very well be very wrong kind) where CCRP and CCIP are as well automatically swapped depending your angle to target.

 

So here is the same:

 

When the bombs are going to drop below your HUD if released, the HUD reticle is used to mark the point for CCRP once you press and hold. And if you go fast enough or dive, then that reticle is turned as CCIP and you get a line to visualize it for you.

 

It is easy and effective as you don't need to care about the modes but just your flight attitude and the symbol.

 

The other thing is that I wonder is the flight director guiding you to release point. In Su-25T it looks to be little challenging to be accurate as the symbol stabilization wing and the guidance ring center dot are so big (I think it should be fairly thin and more defined) and in VR it is even more difficult. And in Su-25A the arrow is as well difficult to get accurately in point.

 

So in Harrier the guide arrow to direct you to do the turn to correct heading should somewhat be fairly easy see as should be that steering arrow and you just point it straight down to be "inline".

 

This harrier "dashed cross" was interesting as in one Harrier DCS video it was said that if the cross is not solid, then it is not "accurate" bombing. While I was like wondering why you would even give "inaccurate" cross then?

 

So good to see that it is for designate marker for CCRP use.

Coming on 6 months and still this hasn't been addressed or even acknowledged.

 

Very disappointing.

Well, I just hope it gets added before release. 6 months still should be enough time to add that kind change at is very important in the A-G AUTO mode.

Coming on 6 months and still this hasn't been addressed or even acknowledged.

 

Very disappointing.

 

I'm not surprised, considering what they did in the Mirage.

 

BR

Here you have more examples

 

 

 

When it pickles even thou the cross is dashed it's automatically select it as a target:

 

 

First drop in a steep angle, hear the sound of the drop... something we don't have today neiter. Also, anyone knows what are the speed chevrons for?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same behavior, continue seeing the video after how the cross is being seen all the time, also beep when dropped and target designated after the drop:

 

CCIP with DST target designated :

 

 

 

 

 

 

More CCIP:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not CCIP the same but can be used to understand how bauto works:

 

 

 

 

 

 

DSL with some fun comments after the drop

 

 

 

The tone you're hearing is the release tone. It can be activated by the pilot in the stores page.

 

The chevrons can be set to a custom depression by the pilot. For takeoff they are set to 14° high.

Edited July 18, 2018 by al531246

The tone you're hearing is the release tone. It can be activated by the pilot in the stores page.

 

The chevrons can be set to a custom depression by the pilot. For takeoff they are set to 14° high.

 

 

Thanks!

Some really excellent finds al, and everyone else on this thread to back it up. The videos are an excellent correlation to the supporting documents. I’ll forward to reddit hopefully this will get some attention as now July and waiting an acknowledgment.

 

Thanks for all your input guys. Can’t wait for this to be implemented correctly (even release tone selection)as this really is a game changer especially on last min attack corrections with bombing intervals.

Please Razbam, take a look at this. CCIP should be fully usable when pipper is out of fov.

OP in Feb , still no comment by RB? 7 months

Yes, I think properly modelled CCIP and Auto modes are very important for an attack a/c. I wish RB paid more attention to this.