Spitfire VS Axis

the spit will win pretty much everytime as long as you set them to same skill levels.

Think my test proves that wrong- only because the spits win even many skills lower.

In a nutshell, the 12 'average' Spitfires massacred all 12 'excellent' Doras with a loss of only 2 of their own. They faced each other head on, with the same starting speed, both at 20k feet.

Methinks you're right about the AI :smartass:

I'll repeat it but with the Axis having a speed and alt advantage for the sake of it, but I think only human pilots are gonna show up any distinct disadvantage the Mk. IX has against the axis.

Edit: spits win again. It's either an overpowered miracle plane contrary to this thread, or the AI is a bit naff. I know which reason I want it to be ;)

Think my test proves that wrong- only because the spits win even many skills lower.

 

In a nutshell, the 12 'average' Spitfires massacred all 12 'excellent' Doras with a loss of only 2 of their own. They faced each other head on, with the same starting speed, both at 20k feet.

 

Methinks you're right about the AI :smartass:

 

I'll repeat it but with the Axis having a speed and alt advantage for the sake of it, but I think only human pilots are gonna show up any distinct disadvantage the Mk. IX has against the axis.

 

Edit: spits win again. It's either an overpowered miracle plane contrary to this thread, or the AI is a bit naff. I know which reason I want it to be ;)

Head on at the same altitude/energy in a 109, I find it almost impossible to beat the spitfire! I even started a thread about this very topic recently. Okay I'm total noob in the 109 but still I think on equal alt/energy in a 109 against an AI that rarely misses its shots, it can still be very difficult to extend and escape.

Think my test proves that wrong- only because the spits win even many skills lower.

 

In a nutshell, the 12 'average' Spitfires massacred all 12 'excellent' Doras with a loss of only 2 of their own. They faced each other head on, with the same starting speed, both at 20k feet.

 

Methinks you're right about the AI :smartass:

 

I'll repeat it but with the Axis having a speed and alt advantage for the sake of it, but I think only human pilots are gonna show up any distinct disadvantage the Mk. IX has against the axis.

 

Edit: spits win again. It's either an overpowered miracle plane contrary to this thread, or the AI is a bit naff. I know which reason I want it to be ;)

Head on at the same altitude/energy in a 109, I find it almost impossible to beat the spitfire! I even started a thread about this very topic recently. Okay I'm total noob in the 109 but still I think on equal alt/energy in a 109 against an AI that rarely misses its shots, it can still be very difficult to extend and escape.

DCS is the best military flight simulator! Multiplayer is good fun, but of course there will be advantages in relation to which plane your in! They have made each plane super similar to their real life counterpart! I don’t really do PVP multiplayer, but normally design my own missions. If you want a fair fight find a friend to do spit v spit, then you’ll have fun!!

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Production Mk IX Spitfires started to emerge from Supermarine plants in June 1942. No 64 Squadron was the first to recieve the new variant in June 1942; it was followed by No 611 Squadron in July 1942 and Nos 401 and 402 (Canadian) Squadrons in August 1942 and No 133 (US Eagle) Squadron in September 1942. Production of the Mark IX built up rapidly.

 

The Mk IX Spitfire entered service in 1942, but the version we have, Merlin 66 engine and .303 machine gun, is the LF version that entered service in Spring 1943, not 44. The Biggin Hill Wing was one of the first to re-equip with the Mark IX LF

 

The Spitfire that would be nearest on the technological time line and release to operational service to the FW 190-D and 109-K versions we currently have in DCS is the Spitfire Mk XIV.

The first production Spitfire XIVs appeared in October 1943. The first squadron to recieve the Mark XIV was No 610 based at Exeter, which re-equipped in January and Febuary 1944. During March 1944 Nos 91 and 322 (Dutch Squdrons also began to re-quip with the Mk XIV. All three squadrons of Spitfire XIVs were fully operatonal.

 

Source for above information: The Spitfire Story, Revised Second Edition by Alfred Price, ISBN 1-85409-305-3 (Foreward to the book is by Jeffrey Quill and the Preface by Dr Gordon Mitchell.

 

Below is a combat roport of action between Mk XIV Spitfires and FW 190 dated 7 March 1944:

 

Combat Reports

610 Squadron's Intelligence Officer recorded on 7 March, 1944 what may be the Spitfire XIV's first aerial combat:

Black section, (P/O Hussey and F/Sgt. Harding) were patrolling on an east west line about 20 miles south east of Start Point 500 feet above sea level, under the control of Kingswear C.H.L. Station.

At approx 17.30 hours the Section was told to investigate unidentified aircraft 15 miles ahead, on a vector 120 degrees. After two minutes this vector was changed to 150 degress (At this time Black one was using only plus 12 lbs boost with his jet tank still on, and the A.S.I. was clocking about 350 miles per hour.) The section was now outside G.C.I. cover, but after about a minute 3 F.W. 190's appeared from 9 o'clock approx 200 feet below, flying in a fairly close vic on a rough vector of 240 degrees; visibility was bad owing to haze, and the section had hardly seen the E/A before they had passed underneath to 3 o'clock.

Black Section immediately pulled round to the right, and it seemed that the E/A saw them at the same moment, for as our section turned on their tails, black smoke was seen pouring from their engines as they pushed everything forward and dived to sea level. The F.W. 190 on the left of the section turned south, and the other two turned away and disappeared into the haze and glare of the sun. Our section gave chase to the single F.W. 190 which at this time, was about 800 yards ahead, right on the deck. We closed without difficulty but when 400 yards away, Black 1 noticed a F.W. 190 making a quarter attack on him from between 4 and 5 o'clock, so gave the order to "break right". As he pulled up he saw the E/A fireing at him with insufficient deflection, and it appeared that the turning circle of the Spitfire XIV was better than that of the F.W. 190. Black 1, at 1,000 feet, was now in the haze and lost sight of the F.W. 190 and his No. 2.

Black 2, who was on the left of Black 1, saw the F.W. 190 break off his attack on Black 1, and dive south west to sea level, so he rolled down to the left and got on to the tail of the F.W. 190 at a distance of about 800 yards (The F.W. 190 that our section had been chasing originally, had disappeared by this time)

At first Black 2, did not close on the F.W. 190 as fast as he would have liked (probably due to the excitement, he forgot to jettison his tank with Black 1 at the commencement of the first chase. The addition of the jet tank would probably take off 30 miles per hour.) Another F.W. 190 now appeared ahead at about 11 o'clock, and joined formation on the left of the aircraft that Black 2 was chasing.

Black 2 now found that he was closing in quite fast, around 400 I.A.S. and opened fire on the left hand F.W. 190 from dead astern at 300 yards he saw strikes on both wing roots and panels flew off the port mainplane as he closed to about 100 yards. Not until the strikes were observed did the other E/A take any action. Even then he did nothing for some time, then pulled straight up and round to the left, and tried to get on the tail of Black 2. Black 2 took a final squirt at his target whose only evasive action was pitching slightly up and down, before he broke into the other E/A which was trying to get on his tail (although clocking 360 m.p.h. the turning circle of the Spitfire seemed superior to that of the F.W. 190) The F.W. 190 fired at Black 2 but allowed insufficient deflection then broke off his attack and disappeared into the mist. The E/A was not seen again. 60

 

Spitfire Mk XIV airpower was over mainland Europe by at least May 1944, With Number 322 (Dutch) Squadron over Antwerp and Volkel,

 

Spitfire Mk IX and XIV aircraft took part in the D-Day Normandy invasion from the 6th June 1944 onwards.

 

The Spitfire XIV is a perfectly valid aircraft for the DCS WWII map, given the date it entered squadron operational service, as well as the numbers over the battle space launched by 2nd TAF (five squadrons of Spitfire XIV) and also from the South of England. The RAF was able to use older less able aircraft like the Spit IX and Typhoon because the Allies had air superiority. Superiority that is not modelled in DCS or any combat flight sim because we would not want that. Therefore, it makes sense for sim developers to pay close attention to the technological time line for the aircraft involved. I suggest that if the Allies had been more desperate and did not have total air superiority, they would have prioritised more Tempest V and Spitfire XIV aircraft, but historically they did not need to. DCS is not totally historical WWII, but it does its best to give us a sense of air combat with some of the aircraft that were involved. The technological time line of the aircraft we have at the moment is somewhat disjointed, but that should improve as time goes on I hope.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

WELL SAID! The data is available here: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-IX.html I still have not come close to the Merlin 61 speeds let alone if it is the 66. If I had a Merlin 66 Basta 150 octane fuel in the game, this would be accurate. Does that mean give us another version of the model by adjusting the number is AN EASY FIX for DCS? ALSO, THIS IS NOT ARCADISH BUT HISTORICAL and anyone to consider it is not, is a loon and historical revisionist. I would love to meet him in the air in a historically matched airplane and we will see who the better pilot is hell I would still try and rap you in the mouth with what we got, sad thing is you would run to your bases AAA which still happens. The Kurfurst Fanboys and I remember well the same argument going back to il2 1946 when they whined forever about the 25lb Boost LOL. Anytime you want to try me on come to the server I fly on a T1 line test your skill. The statement was made that 109K4 was in service WHAT A JOKE- This was the main version of the 109K. It first appeared in October 1944!!! Quote German From the Guru Kurfurst Website FANBOYS- October to December of 1944 NOWHERE NEAR THE NORMANDY BEACHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A key point is that it would be VERY easy for any server hosting WW2 scenarios to simply remove availability of MW50. No, it might not be the perfect solution, but it's a workable option that could be done given 10 mins of work. The implications being that the the Axis aircraft are given max power more in keeping with late 43', which is a LOT closer to the current Spit and Mustang.

Quite why current WW2 servers don't already do this, I've no idea.

I hope this will never happen on the server I play..

I hope this will never happen on the server I play..

Fly a BF109 perchance?

Again the Luftwhiner will never join your server. The easiest way would be to give us a 25lbs boosted Spit Merlin 66 Engine which was common during this time (ALL ALLIED FIGHTER COMMANDS WERE RUNNING 150 by this time in the war). But since the Luftees put in a K4 and have air superiority over Normandy which is so unhistorical it's not even funny. That creation of a 25lbs spit or an MKXIV would be giving the advantage back to the allies and this is a no-no in Combat flight simulators.

and this is a no-no in Combat flight simulators.

As in, they've all agreed not to model these in any sim ever? Now that one's a real conspiracy theory right there :D

All Mk IX Spitfires in 2 TAF had been retrofitted with the Mk II Gyro sight by May 1944 as well. That small advance drastically improved marksmanship and compounded allied numerical superiority and should not be left out of an update to bring the Mk IX up to a standard appropriate to the map and Axis plane set as it exists.

Again the Luftwhiner will never join your server. The easiest way would be to give us a 25lbs boosted Spit Merlin 66 Engine which was common during this time (ALL ALLIED FIGHTER COMMANDS WERE RUNNING 150 by this time in the war).

No they weren't. As of D-Day a small number of ADGB squadrons were running 150 octane in their Mk.IXs.

As the V1 threat appeared there was an impetus to get more units converted.

Similarly the Mk XIV equipped only three squadrons, again of ADGB by D-Day: 91, 610, 322. 41, 402 and 350 would be equipped by August. After June 13th they would be employed exclusively on anti-V1 duties until after the Normandy campaign was over.

The 2nd TAF Spitfires, of Mk.IX only, were never supplied with 150 octane till Feb of '45 and such was the state of the Luftwaffe by late March/early April all were being converted back to 100 octane as it was not deemed worth the increased maintenance required with 150 octane.

What we have needed since day 1 is a 109 and 190 variant that actually flew over Normandy. We are getting the A-8. Time will tell if the appropriate 109G variant that is coming as AI will be flyable.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

USAAF Materiel Command held a "Conference on National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics Test Program to Investigate 150 Grade Fuels" on 27-28, January 1944. It was concluded that "The program outlined should permit conclusive data to be obtained and should indicate the relative advantages of the various high octane fuel components for the preparation of satisfactory rich and lean rating fuels. It should also indicate the military value of these fuels for long range patrol or bombardment operation". It was recommended that "the program outlined should be carried out as expeditiously as is possible".

Using the fuel for Operation Overlord, the invasion of France, was being actively considered at the highest levels as of February 1944. General Dwight D. Eisenhower, commanding SHAEF, wrote to Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall and General Henry H. Arnold, head of the Air Force on 11 February, 1944 of the importance of using 150 fuel to the "fullest possible extent". 5 On 13 February, 1944 General Arnold replied that Xylidine, a necessary component for 150 grade fuel production, was being drummed for shipment and that information available to him "indicates satisfactory operation of Merlin and possibly R-2800 engines on this fuel". 6 On 21 February 1944 the Engineering Division of the US Army Air Force Materiel Command was instructed to initiate a test program on 104/150 Grade Fuel. 7

The Other Point I made Fen was that the 109 K4 was not even in Normandy, and here in lies the delema of DCS one fanboy on here complained that they did not have 150 I just said and will say again by 1944 June they were gettting 150 and the likelyness that a few months after had it. Just like the 109 K4 They had it by October it works so this plane should be 25lbs. I know they wont because the powers that be Love the advantage which in history NEVER EXISTED LOL.

Well there's this:

150 grade fuel continued to be used by 8th AF units through 1944. The WER engine limitation for the P-51 continued to be 72" Hg. Eighth Air Force Fighter Groups converted to a new blend of 150 grade fuel, with increased amounts of ethylene dibromide (1½ T) in early 1945. P.E.P, as the new fuel was called, was tried in order to remedy lead fouling of spark plugs. While spark plug fouling was eliminated, PEP was found to have an undesirable effect on valve seats. As a result of excessive maintenance required on the V-1650 engines, General Doolittle of the Eighth Air Force decided in late March 1945 to revert to the normal 100/150 (1 T) grade fuel.

The Other Point I made Fen was that the 109 K4 was not even in Normandy, and here in lies the delema of DCS

Agreed, but not a fault of EDs making and I have addressed in my response the measures that are coming to alleviate this prototypical inaccuracy.

one fanboy on here complained that they did not have 150 I just said and will say again by 1944 June they were gettting 150 and the likelyness that a few months after had it. Just like the 109 K4 They had it by October it works so this plane should be 25lbs. I know they wont because the powers that be Love the advantage which in history NEVER EXISTED LOL.

What part of you does not comprehend what I posted. Also what part of you thinks a tech order applied to the UNITED STATES 8TH ARMY AIR FORCE applies to the UNITED KINGDOM ROYAL AIR FORCE?

Was 150 Octane available - YES.

Did it suddenly magically appear and be issued to all - NO. Your source indicates there is limited tonnage and, whilst it would increase the availability had to be prioritised.

Were there issues with it's use - YES. Spark plug fouling and increased valve seat wear being not insignificant. Ultimately these will affect reliability.

Did the entire allied force jump on the bandwagon and convert all units without thorough testing first - NO. RAF ADGB units started with a single squadron as 1944 began and widened it's use as the year progressed. When it was faced with the V-1 campaign in the summer, in an effort to improve low altitude performance it was brought in wholesale to ADGB to help the slower Mk.IXs be more competitive. NOT 2nd TAF who were in more regular contact with the Luftwaffe.

When the K-4 enters service there is 3-4 month window when Spitfires IXs of the 2nd Tactical Airforce, who I remind you were:

(i) the most geographically close to the Luftwaffe

(ii) more likely to meet the Luftwaffe in aerial combat and

(iii) not using 150 octane

were meeting the K-4 variants - albeit in limited numbers and piloted by on average men/boys of an ever decreasing skill level - whilst running 100 octane.

You might not like the match up but it is entirely historically valid.

Again the Luftwhiner will never join your server. The easiest way would be to give us a 25lbs boosted Spit Merlin 66 Engine which was common during this time (ALL ALLIED FIGHTER COMMANDS WERE RUNNING 150 by this time in the war). But since the Luftees put in a K4 and have air superiority over Normandy which is so unhistorical it's not even funny. That creation of a 25lbs spit or an MKXIV would be giving the advantage back to the allies and this is a no-no in Combat flight simulators.[/quote

 

Your language is degrading for you and your peers..

scratch that mkIX with 25lbs boost i would buy MKIVX with 25lbs

Normandy map is just a coincident i think ED didnt make this map to match p-51 vs bf109k4. its just historical map i would not combine this map this planes tho. ED i doubt that ED has manpower to create multiple maps for every period. BTW i enjoy flying over caucasus map in war birds too

Fenn do you have the spitfire- First please repeat the speed tests at 23000 ft with a 12 lb boosted spitfire.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bf274.html

I will post my video this weekend!

Secondly,

Quote: Into Service with the Royal Air Force

"Following successful testing, the Spitfire IX's Merlin 66 was cleared in March 1944 to use +25 lbs, obtainable with 150 grade fuel. In early May, No. 1 and No. 165 Squadrons comprising the Predannack Wing, were the first to convert their Spitfires to +25 lbs boost and employ 150 grade fuel on operations. Air Defense Great Britain (A.D.G.B.) shared a report, dated 16th June 1944 with A.E.A.F. summarizing the RAF's experience with using 150 Grade Fuel in Merlin 66 engines. All pilots reported most favorably on the value of the high boost pressures obtainable with 150 Grade Fuel, however, Technical Staff felt that before the fuel was introduced on a large scale that the causes of backfires must be established and that at least 12 engines should complete 200 hours each. By the end of July the backfires were overcome through fairly straightforward adjustments. By 12 August 1944, 16 Squadrons in A.D.G.B. had been modified to to operate with 150 grade fuel."

Well Fen sorry to disagree, but for a correct match up over Normandy should have been a Mk XIV, but in the case of a Merlin 66 25lbs spit would have worked just fine, if you are stating that no matter what these planes would have never seen combat over Normandy since one was completed in Oct. of 44 the other one which would have had well enough 150oct fuel which would have been well tested by the time. SINCE WE HAVE NO 14 would have been a realistic fight minus the plane that should have been there!!!!

By August of 1944: MKXIV where replacing them, but back fires had been over come in the MKIX( However since the 14 was on the way their was no need and the IX took on a ground pounding roll (WHICH STILL USED 150oct FUEL)- http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/backfire-2.jpg

Qutoe: "2nd TAF aircraft based in Europe (converted to 150 Octane Jan/Feb 45), it should also be about aircraft launched from the South coast of England too. OK, England is not to be part of the BP map, but aircraft from the South coast of England were operating in combat all over the area covered by the BP map. So surely it makes sense to represent that fact, otherwise we have an historically distorted set of Allied aircraft over the operational area of the BP map. Surely this should not be the case. Air starts on a map can easily simulate aircraft coming from the South coast of England.

Aircraft launched from England were a major part of the air war over the BP map area for the operations and time line the dev's have stated. To ignore the historic fact of these aircraft over the battle field could risk misrepresenting the capability of Allied aircraft that took part.

If 150 Octane is not to be modelled for a BP map covering 1944 to 1945, then when is it? Never? Surely not?

Happy landings,

Talisman"

Again Fenn Sorry you feel that it was not important and that none of this was correct your info I fear is off unless you can provide me proof that the No.126 Wing RCAF and others serving during D-Day (Testing started in March and even if only one squadron had it then it should have been default) and in operations as fighter bombers were not using 150 octane fuel which the game needs if we are moving towards Bodenplatte as stated by Talismen above and SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE DEFAULT BOOST CREATING IT. The problem is that since most of the WWII servers now only have these planes to work with it would be even as a fight bomber a 25lbs spitfire. Sad thing is your afraid that the advantage would move toward the allied side and here is the Problem HISTORICAL OR NOT WHICH IT IS Because some squads GOT THE FUEL!

Yes, however it wasn't until January/February that supplies started to arrive IIRC.

So until the last few months 25lb spitfire would have been a rarity over Normandy given the lack of range, it would be nice to have the option though.

King you're banging on about something you obviously know little about, and quoting Talisman, as much as I respect his opinion, is erroneous.

You are clearly in such a blinkered, target fixated mindset attempting desperately to prove that 150 octane was ubiquitous in RAF service during 1944 that you see supporting evidence anywhere you look.

The truth is more nuanced. Yes, there were units operating mk.ix at 150 octane settings, however the these were operated away from where the bulk of Luftwaffe forces were focussed and this is reflected in the Combat Reports from units equipped as such. There are few examples of ADGB units being involved in combat with 109s during this period.

2nd TAF on the other hand is, throughout Autumn/winter, regularly encountering the Jagdwaffe 109s and 190s. And until Jan/Feb they were doing so on 100 octane.

What then as a Luftwaffe pilot were you most likely to encounter?

Yes, however it wasn't until January/February that supplies started to arrive IIRC.

 

So until the last few months 25lb spitfire would have been a rarity over Normandy given the lack of range, it would be nice to have the option though.

Krupi squads were using it which means that in that case should be in the game. The point that I am making is by BP it was in use and then the interaction between a K4 and 25 is unlikely but possible most of the major A2A was with the MKXIV. So the aspect that we have a 16lbs or closer to 12lbs is more like it is sad and the fight is so lopsided lol. Anyway that data and info on 150 octane fuel being produced and shipped is relavent and this same battle is going on in il2 which took place over a decade or more ago when il2 1946 announced the 25lbs. All the Luftwhiner got rolling Kurfhurst fan boy posted data and it went back and fourth. The game is still being played and the aerial battles lasted for years. So to give the allied a plane that was in serves and correcting the numbers would be easy. Again the data as posted above towards later 44 they had the fueel and testing was finished BY THE TIME THE K4 was introduced. So the possibility of these planes crossing could have happened and since the K4 never saw service over Normandy not to give the spit a boost to 25 is Laughable.

If you were to look at my posts from two/three years ago you would see that I have been asking for the 25lb spitfire as well, unfortunately the evidence points to it not being a huge game changer in reality.

Now given we have a K4 109 I would like to see a XIV or Tempest being worked on, fingers crossed we will together with a G6 for the Normandy map.

King you're banging on about something you obviously know little about, and quoting Talisman, as much as I respect his opinion, is erroneous.

 

You are clearly in such a blinkered, target fixated mindset attempting desperately to prove that 150 octane was ubiquitous in RAF service during 1944 that you see supporting evidence anywhere you look.

 

The truth is more nuanced. Yes, there were units operating mk.ix at 150 octane settings, however the these were operated away from where the bulk of Luftwaffe forces were focussed and this is reflected in the Combat Reports from units equipped as such. There are few examples of ADGB units being involved in combat with 109s during this period.

 

2nd TAF on the other hand is, throughout Autumn/winter, regularly encountering the Jagdwaffe 109s and 190s. And until Jan/Feb they were doing so on 100 octane.

 

What then as a Luftwaffe pilot were you most likely to encounter?

+1

However like you said the truth is nuanced.... yes there was a much more likely encounter with a18lb spitfire, but then again the luftwaffe had to deal with a utter swarm of allied aircraft... That isn't exactly represented, so the question becomes where does one draw the line?