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Brunner Force Feedback Joystick Base


Mozart

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With regards to FFB inside DCS, it turns out that vJoy can receive FFB commands, and with an appropriate feeder, it's possible to do something when a FFB command is received. It also just so happens that Brunner has an API available for CLS2Sim that allows you to control force feedback with an external application while reading the state of the joystick position.

 

What this means is that it should be possible to write an application that glues vJoy together with CLS2Sim to get force feedback with the Brunner base in DCS (and any other game that supports FFB). I've looked a bit into this and I believe I can write the app, but without a Brunner base, I don't have access to the CLS2Sim software, and even if I did, there's not much point without a base to test against.

 

The challenge is in adapting FFB commands to CLS2Sim commands. FFB commands expects that the joystick understands how to implement the command, so for example the command might be something like "activate a spring force at 88 degrees with 200-level force for 0.5 seconds", and the base is expected to know how to do it. Looking at the CLS2Sim API though, it seems like it only supports simple "activate a force in a certain direction with a certain strength" until it receives a cancel command, though I won't be able to tell for sure until I get a base for myself to try it against. I will likely have to implement all the FFB effect types in a way that will duplicate the same effect in CLS2Sim with its simpler API.

 

With that said, I'm currently trying to drum up enough funds to purchase a base. Keep an eye out for an update from me.


Edited by Ranma13
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  • 2 weeks later...

I am running a motion rig and found that to be an issue with joystick creating PIO pilot induced oscillation, I was also lucky enough to have a fast jet pilot to give feedback, setting up the profiles to your liking will take you a while but once you do its worth it.

 

This is a big improvement my profile is able to replicate the ramp in stick force so you get a much more natural force and need to progressively pull as the Gs and aoa increase, without the motion base introducing unwanted movement i am now able to pull to a G very accurately.

 

Trim is working very well feels much more natural becomes second nature to nail on speed aoa.

 

Brunner have said they are working on DCS FF support so will be even better when thats out.

 

Very happy with this a very positive addition and cant go back.

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I am running a motion rig and found that to be an issue with joystick creating PIO pilot induced oscillation, I was also lucky enough to have a fast jet pilot to give feedback, setting up the profiles to your liking will take you a while but once you do its worth it.

 

This is a big improvement my profile is able to replicate the ramp in stick force so you get a much more natural force and need to progressively pull as the Gs and aoa increase, without the motion base introducing unwanted movement i am now able to pull to a G very accurately.

 

Trim is working very well feels much more natural becomes second nature to nail on speed aoa.

 

Brunner have said they are working on DCS FF support so will be even better when thats out.

 

Very happy with this a very positive addition and cant go back.

 

Any chance of sharing your CLS2sim profile?

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Brunner have said they are working on DCS FF support so will be even better when thats out.

 

Small correction, Brunner has never explicitly stated that they're working on DirectInput FFB support, only that they're interested in it but want to focus on their primary market for now (general aviation):

 

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Small correction, Brunner has never explicitly stated that they're working on DirectInput FFB support, only that they're interested in it but want to focus on their primary market for now (general aviation):

 

My recent discussion with them was that FFB DCS is now on their roadmap but of course your right the priority could bump it down the list

 

NATOPS lists the forces, 2.8.2.8

Pitch rate and g (NZ) feedbacks improve pitch characteristics and g control at medium to high airspeeds. Air data scheduled pitch rate feedback improves maneuvering characteristics and provides increasing stick-force-per-g at low to medium airspeeds. AOA feedback provides increasing stick force with increasing AOA above 22°. In the takeoff and land modes, AOA and pitch rate feedbacks are used to augment inherent airframe pitch damping and stability. The computer nulls the difference between the trim AOA and actual AOA. In turns, pitch rate feedback maintains tight pitch attitude control.

 

11.1.5 Stick Force. In maneuvering flight, there is a light but constant stick force per g (about 3.5 to 4.5 pounds/g). Unlike many other aircraft, maneuvering stick forces do not vary significantly over the entire operating envelope as long as the AOA is less than AOA feedback of 22°. Where AOA feedback is active, maneuvering stick forces are increased significantly.

 

So the current static profile i have as an inner ring at the light but constant with an outer ring at 70% deflection which ramps rapidly up to the max this enables the nice constant feel with a big pull at limits so faking the lack of FFB for AOA and G, simple but currently it feels right

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With DCS full support I would definetely buy

 

One thing to keep in mind is that not all the aircraft have good support for FFB. I'm currently writing a vJoy feeder that can read the FFB messages and output them to another app for processing, so I played around with a bunch of the aircraft to see how they handle FFB.

 

For helicopters, it seems like the only thing implemented is spring offset, and force trim and damage modifies the spring offset. However, no other forces are implemented.

 

For fixed wing, it depends. The A-10C, F/A-18C, and Su-27 only use spring offset, and is controlled by the trim. This is better than nothing, but is very rudimentary. Other aircraft like the Su-25T and TF-51D will actually modify the spring force as airspeed changes to simulate the controls getting stiffer as airflow over the wings increases, though I can barely feel the difference with my MS FFB2. The TF-51D will also periodically send a square wave to simulate wind buffeting, and the stick will shake as you're approaching a stall.

 

Bottom line is, don't expect the same nuanced detail in the FFB as you would in X-Plane and Prepar3D. If I can get FFB working in DCS with the CLS-E, I'd say it's still worth it, but depending on what you fly, the experience can vary from a somewhat enhanced experience to "barely better than a spring-based joystick".

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Bottom line is, don't expect the same nuanced detail in the FFB as you would in X-Plane and Prepar3D. If I can get FFB working in DCS with the CLS-E, I'd say it's still worth it, but depending on what you fly, the experience can vary from a somewhat enhanced experience to "barely better than a spring-based joystick".

 

 

Or you can use the telemetry data itself to calculate the forces. But that needs deep understanding of aerodynamics. Like this guy has done:

 

 

http://bffsimulation.com/CL_Software.php

 

 

Maybe he is interested in some cooperation..

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Brunner themselves use telemetry data too so they're a more likely partner, but more realistically what they'll do is take my work and implement it directly into CLS2Sim. As far as I understand, they already have a vJoy feeder, they just need to update it to interpret FFB commands.

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Brunner themselves use telemetry data too so they're a more likely partner, but more realistically what they'll do is take my work and implement it directly into CLS2Sim. As far as I understand, they already have a vJoy feeder, they just need to update it to interpret FFB commands.

 

 

He's mainly selling hardware for DIY FFB Yokes and moving platforms, so I guess he is more of a competitor. Maybe we could fly the Hornet with a FFB Yoke!


Edited by Pinello
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I've run into a small hiccup. FFB commands are supposed to be loaded into a 'slot' (called an effect block index), which allows you to layer multiple effects on top of each other. For example, you can have a damper effect, spring center effect, and a periodic force all active at the same time, and each effect will take up one slot each.

 

The problem is that vJoy doesn't change the slot number and uses the same number for every effect. This can be potentially troublesome because the FFB command can be something like "stop the effect in slot 1", and I don't know which effect is the correct one to stop. Luckily, it looks like DCS doesn't ever send the "stop the effect" command, instead choosing to set the force amount to 0. This isn't really an issue because each force has fairly unique parameters, so I can figure out which command belongs to which force simply by looking at what parameters the command has. I don't know if this behavior is the same across all sims though, which could prove to be troublesome.

 

In the meantime, I'm looking at some alternative libraries to see if there's one that supports changing the slot number. If not, I'll go with the "just figure out which command belongs to which effect" method, but it could cause issues depending on the sim.

 

Which DCS aircraft have ffb joystick support ?

 

They all have support for FFB, just at varying levels. Some are fairly detailed and have effects like wind buffeting and stronger stick pressure at higher speeds (Su-25T, TF-51D), and some are barely better than a spring-based joystick, only supporting return to center and trim (Su-27, A-10C).


Edited by Ranma13
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Another small update, I confirmed with the vJoy developer that vJoy is hard-coded to use only effect block index 1, which I also verified by checking the vJoy source code. Based on his other forum posts, it also seems that he's stopped all development on vJoy and considers it end-of-life, so the chances of him fixing it are basically nil.

 

Unfortunately, I'm a web developer and not a driver developer. I could update vJoy myself to fix the effect block index issue, but it would likely take me ages just to understand how the driver works, and ages more to actually implement the update. For now, I think I'll stick to the vJoy driver until it becomes impossible to work around the effect block index issue.

 

On the plus side, I verified that DCS will create 3 effects when it starts up: spring for centering, periodic square for jolts and stall shakes, and constant force. As far as I can tell with the modules that I own, only spring and periodic square forces are used. This is great because it means that I don't really need to rely on the effect block index; the spring force has a set of parameters specific only to it, so if I get a FFB command with those parameters, I know that it's for the spring force. Likewise applies to the periodic square force. DCS will also send a "stop the effect at block index 1" command, but it will never stop the spring effect, so I know the command is for the periodic force. As long as there are no additional curveballs, I should have no issues from the vJoy side.

 

The next step is to get access to CLS2Sim by purchasing a Brunner base. I'm still trying to raise the funds I need to pick one up, so it might take a while. In the meantime, I will check how other sims such as IL:2 and Rise of Flight handle FFB. If vJoy doesn't pan out, a backup idea is to use the Virtual HID Framework that Microsoft created as part of their Windows Driver Kit. It only works with Windows 10 and requires C++, but it also greatly simplifies the creation of a virtual HID device. As long as I can get it to the point where I can send and receive HID reports, the rest should be fairly straightforward as I already have a good understanding of how HID reports and the FFB protocol works.

 

And since everyone likes pictures, here's what my app currently looks like:

 

9KaRtp6l.png

 

This is in the Su-25T. The center point offset for the spring effect is the center position of the joystick. Here, it's -2392, indicating that it's slightly forward. The positive and negative coefficient determines how strong the spring effect is. The faster you're flying, the stronger the spring effect, but on my MSFFB2, I can barely tell the difference between 4000 and 6000. For the square effect, the magnitude is how strong the back and forth effect is, and the period is how fast it oscillates back and forth. With a 2444 magnitude (out of 10,000) and a 95 period (I think this means 1/95 seconds, but not 100% sure yet), the stick is giving a fairly mild but quick shake.

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Ranma,

 

As my understanding of programming is limited (nil), I just wanted to ask, how hard do you think would it be to integrate using the vJoy and only utilize the trim effects? I ask the question, as I am interested in what you've been posting (albeit, just lurking).

 

 

I think these are the most important, with stall buffeting being close after that. For fixed, and rotary wing alike, though, when using trim, corresponding movement of the stick is most important.

 

 

Hardware trim through CLS2 does this already, but this is limited in 'realism' for modern aircraft only. It would be great to be able to adjust the P-51's trim, for example, using buttons on a different controller, and have the stick adjust based on that.

 

 

Even with the current plugins for P3d, and X-Plane, I seem to have better luck with hardware trim, than with the plugin. When I set up the VRS Superbug in P3d, I created a profile using software trim. All buttons were confirmed mapped correctly. The roll trim would actually move the stick, but pitch trim didn't move anything at all. I ended up going back to hardware trim, and the only thing the plugin does now, is provide a bit of engine rumble.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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Trim effect should be the easiest to implement because every module supports it and CLS2Sim's API has direct support for setting the trim position. The incoming FFB trim data ranges from -10,000 to +10,000 and CLS2Sim ranges from -1.0 to +1.0, so theoretically all I have to do is scale it properly, pass it directly off to CLS2Sim, and everything should work as expected, including being able to change the trim on another device and have the CLS-E base respond accordingly.

 

Stall buffeting will be harder to implement. Most modules don't send a FFB "shake stick" command when nearing a stall. However, I have a JetSeat and I noticed that it will rumble when nearing a stall, so I've been looking at the exported data from SimShaker and I think I can use that data to add additional force feedback effects such as rumbling when the cannon is fired, a small shake when a missile is launched, and a light rumbling when afterburners are engaged.

 

On that point, I wanted to ask: how are the rumble effects implemented with the CLS-E base? According to the API, there's a fast vibration and a slow vibration effect, but I don't know if those vibrations are generated by the force feedback motors themselves, or through additional offset motors like the kind used in game controllers. This will affect how I implement some of the effects, because a stick shake effect using offset motors will feel very different than shaking the actual stick itself.

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Without taking it apart, I can’t say for sure, but it feels like all effects come from the base motors. In fact, the stick oscillates a bit if left alone sometimes.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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MS FFB2 joystick or successor for DCS in 2019?

 

Hello,

 

I use a Saitek Pro Flight Yoke since 2009, but I am not satisfied with it under DCS because despite my multiple settings, there is still too much floating and it is almost impossible to aim with.

Besides, I also have an old MS Sidewinder Force Feeback 2 joystick (crashed by my wife in 2009 doing housework). I just resurrect it and I try to use it under DCS since Sunday night.

 

Everything is recognized under DCS (Windows 10), but the force feedback does not work.

I am currently looking for a solution on the side of the drivers (but I have little hope for this joystick that is no longer produced since 2001).

 

In addition, beyond being annoyed at not being able to use my FFB, while I have the configuration that goes well, it also seems that the FFB joysticks feedback force, are scarce .. .

 

So what joystick would you recommend for DCS ?

I have trouble finding accurate and current info on this.

Eagle Dynamics does not advocate any particular Joystick apparently.

 

I already have a rudder and wish a two-axis (possibly FFB) joystick.

Nota: I mostly fly in VR.

 

 

Thank you in advance for your help.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have been following this thread since I saw the base last year. I sent them an email asking for a hard number in a group purchase to prioritize creating a driver in DCS. Instead they responded by stating they will have drivers in Q2 of this year for what will likely be one module. Not sure if the FFB hooks Rama has seen in the DCS modules are standardized. But maybe it’s time to save in earnest toward one of these bases.

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Here’s the email I received:

 

 

Hi,

 

Implementation of DCS in CLS2Sim is planned and on the ToDo List

Main Features will be Dynamic Forces..

Estimated approx. End of Q2/2019

 

maybe only a one aircraft will be supported on the beginning

 

kind regards

 

Stefan Brunner

 

 

Brunner Elektronik AG

Industriestrasse 27

8335 Hittnau

 

Telefon: +41 44 953 10 10 Fax: +41 44 953 10 19 Direkt: +41 44 953 10 22

E-Mail: s.brunner@brunner-innovation.swiss Web: http://www.brunner-innovation.swiss

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Interesting, this is the first time I've heard of them having an actual estimated timeline. The FFB messages are standardized, so if you implement them for one game, it will work in other games as well. I'm extremely curious how they plan to get around the vJoy effect block index issue. Perhaps they'll go the custom driver route, or perhaps they plan to use vJoy and haven't actually started development.

 

I'll still continue work on my version. I feel that my implementation will be more full-featured in the end, since I plan to also integrate telemetry data with the base, and not just the FFB messages themselves.

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Ranma13 sorry that spell check respelled your name wrong in the post above. I hope you will continue working to make a full fledged driver for the base. I am taking it that CLS2Sim is their proprietary driver for their bases. The feedback that I experienced when flying the military sims was incredible, I hope we can add that to DCS in the future.

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If someone needs another name for a prospective buyer list to send to Brunner (or something along those lines), I myself and a friend would both purchase in a heartbeat if we saw this base with DCS compatibility

 

Cheers,

Harry

2080Ti FTW3 Ultra - G.Skill RJ 32GB (16x2) DDR4 3200 - Ryzen 2700X 4.2Ghz OC - Corsair H100i Pro - Samsung 970 EVO M.2 2TB - TMW HOTAS w Delta Sim - F/A-18C grip - 10cm Sahaj - TrackIR 5 Pro - Rift CV1 - MFG CWind - BuddyFox UFC - DSD RK II - Cougar MFDs w/ LCDs - Foxx Mounts - VPC MongoosT-50CM base

 

- Maps: NTTR, Persian Gulf, Normandy

- Modules: FC3, F-14A/B, F/A-18C, AV-8B, A-10C, F-16C, F-86, KA-50, P-51D, WWII assets, and [insert campaign name]

Dreaming of the F-15E / F-14D / Rhino

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