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Determining Bottlenecks in Performance?


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Please find specs appended to end of post under the spoiler.

 

Hey, so this is the first time I've posted in a while and I realise this forum isn't really to extort tech support from fellow users, but I've read quite a bit of conflicting information and need a bit of help.

 

Since I've updated to 2.5β my performance has hit rock bottom; especially with the Harrier where looking across the mountains in Batumi can reduce my frame rate to 15fps. Since I'm wanting to try out VR soon I think an upgrade is certainly in order.

 

Do you guys have any software utilities that can determine whether it's my CPU or GPU bottlenecking my PC performance? Also, are there any particular graphical settings that cause a significant impact on frame rate, say reflective mirrors for instance?

 

I've also read on here that a good GPU is much more beneficial to a good CPU for running DCS (which I found quite paradoxical considering all the INSANE aerodynamic calculations DCS has to conduct but oh well) - what do you guys think? I was thinking about buying EITHER a Ryzen/i7 or a 1080(Ti).

 

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

 

Mobo: ASUS P8H67-M

CPU: i5 2500k @3.30GHz

GPU: GTX 660Ti 2GB

RAM: 2x 4GB Samsung DDR3 DUAL-DDR3 1333MHz

SSD: 240GB SATA3 Kingston SV300S37A240G

 

 

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I'd say you could maybe get away with current processor but GPU and RAM upgrades are necessary.

 

Have you done clean up and repair and/or renaming Saved Games folder to rule out problems with install causing performance issues?

 

As far as settings, yes mirrors do have a big impact. Since you don't have much RAM you should have preload radius all the way down, shadows and water on lower settings, DOF and Lens Flare off, view distance and trees on lower settings.


Edited by cthulhu68

 

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Have you done clean up and repair and/or renaming Saved Games folder to rule out problems with install causing performance issues?

 

I'm actually unaware of these techniques. How does renaming the Saved Games folder improve performance? Is there some sort of save bloat or something?

 

EDIT: Forgot to say, thanks for suggesting the upgrades and the settings tweaks by the way!

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Your saved game folder stores certain data that can get obsolete and stand in your way.

Renaming is save, as it KEEPS your input files, so you do not have to match all controls again. You can import those settings into your new DCS saved games folder. That's why you rename and not delete.

 

Your PC:

The CPU could work if you overclock it towards 4.5G but you do not sound too computer literate and may not want to do this. So yes, it could serve you some more time with the right MHz.

 

RAM is too little for most sceanrios, 16GB is needed. I think 32GB is better, but that is my personal view and current prices make it hard to justify that.

 

GPU...hmmm..a 1080Ti only makes sense with both of the above being fixed, fatser CPU + more RAM.

 

SSD ? you really need a SSD !

 

Actually time for a complete rebuild imho, if you can finance it.

 

*apropos Ryzen..if you buy an AM4 Socket CPU you need Motherboard + CPU + DDR4 RAM that is 50% of a new PC, add GPU, SSD + PSU and you are complete


Edited by BitMaster

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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Thanks for the reply BitMaster. I'm starting to think the same thing honestly, but I've got a decent case and already have an SSD so think these are the only components I'm gonna keep. Certainly not going to be cheap! I could prob overclock as I've got a 2500k but I think cthulu's right in saying it's the RAM that is severely limiting my DCS performance.

 

And yeah current prices are a nightmare, I hate how everything's so over-inflated at the moment with the current mining craze.

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Forgot to mention the other settings issue that can have a big impact. MSAA. There's a few different settings people recommend and the one I found to work pretty well is in-game MSAA at 2X and in Nvidia control panel under Anti-aliasing Mode select enhance application setting and AA-2X.

 

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What motherboard do you have? The CPU is very capable of overclocking. Download Intel's Extreme Tuning software and play with it there. Just bump it up to 4.0ghz and see how it handles it. The intel software has included stress testing to show you all you'll need to know.

 

 

The motherboard is important to know because you want to put the fastest memory you can. If it can support DDR3 PC2400 that would be a good upgrade. After that speed it's only marginal increases in performance. But you definitely need to look around for a better graphics card.

 

 

 

 

 

Basically think of it like this. The CPU is a pickup truck that can haul "X" amount of dirt to a worksite. At that worksite there are guys waiting to shovel it (they're your GPU). The guys can only shovel so much so getting a faster/bigger truck to haul more in doesn't do you any good if they're already having dirt build up.

 

 

 

The higher resolutions put a stronger load on the GPU. This means it's what becomes limiting and no matter how much faster a cpu you get you're still going to have that dirt piling up for the gpu.

 

 

 

You should look at 16GB or more of memory and a better graphics card. Look on ebay for both. Miners are dumping parts now and I bought a GTX 1080ti that might as well have been new. Runs like a charm.

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The IMC of SandyBridge only does 2133MHz, no need for any faster specs, wasted money.

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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The IMC of SandyBridge only does 2133MHz, no need for any faster specs, wasted money.

 

So is this an argument not to buy more (faster) RAM and just OC my CPU or to buy a new CPU entirely? In which case, I'd be looking at a full rebuild.

 

As an offshoot of my previous question - I'd love to play the game with VR but the screen-door effect with current headsets seems, for lack of a better word, pretty crap. I'm thinking about holding off for a Pimax 4k but getting the game to run at that resolution on any card seems years away. Not sure if there's any point rebuilding until then.

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Sorry to say but for VR you will need a new rig what that might be for 4K VR I have no idea about, at the moment keeping up with just Rift is hard enough.

 

Just to illustrate when I load DCS up

 

RAM 6 to 7GB used DCS

 

VRAM 8 to 9GB used DCS

 

CPU about 12% utilisation DCS

 

GPU 80% plus utilisation. * DCS

 

From that you can test what is going on with your rig using task manager, however I would say RAM and GPU will keep you going for a while longer.

 

I would expect your rig to have higher CPU utilisation but doubt its pegged anywhere near 100% total.

 

16GB minimum and not for DCS's sake but windows it pretty much stops actively using it's paging file with 32GB on my rig.

 

1070 or1070Ti or better that way you can migrate the GPU to your next rig. Or if your on a tight budget a second hand 980Ti.

 

BM is correct you don't need fancy fast memory if your mother board can't use the higher clock rates. Although you could use the faster memory if you were to upgrade the mother board latter. But be aware if that isn't for a few years then the next best new type memory will be required anyway.

 

Having said all that 2.5 is looking and preforming very good, it's got teething issues but this change to 2.5 is a mammoth task.

 

* A lot of people bang on about pushing the GPU harder but I find at that level I don't get any problems with drop frames or stutters etc very smooth and consistent 45FPS which I'll take over maybe better graphics and stutters and artefacts any day. :)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Awesome frag what a thorough reply! What’s you opinion on a 1080 vs 1080Ti? The Ti just wasted money atm?

 

I should really say thank you to everyone else that’s posted in the thread as well because this has given me a lot to think about!

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For me 1080Ti but I also run Rift so it's a no brainer for me even at the cost.

 

Out domestic average pricing here is

 

1070, $800

 

1070Ti $890

 

1080 $950

 

1080ti $1400

 

So hard to say some overclocked 1070Ti s can preform better then some 1080 s but for me I'd err on the 1080 for and average $60 more and sorry but the 1080Ti would be a waste on your rig with the $450 being used somewhere else. (besides you'll probably need something even gruntier than a 1080Ti for 4k VR :P)

 

Keep in mind you'll need 650W to maybe 850W PSU with a 980Ti or higher end 10xx series GPU.

 

250W GPU

100W CPU

30W RAM

50W SSD, fans, and mother board, HDD if you also have one!

 

430W plus have about 50% head room!

 

 

If your only interested in in a single screen what is the cost for a second hand 980Ti?

 

What is the cost of 16GB RAM?

 

Also have you tried getting the GPU and CPU utilisation with task manager?

 

Another consideration is there will likely be a new series of GPU's coming soon as well and don't write off the AMD offerings.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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What motherboard do you have? The CPU is very capable of overclocking. Download Intel's Extreme Tuning software and play with it there. Just bump it up to 4.0ghz and see how it handles it. The intel software has included stress testing to show you all you'll need to know.

 

 

The motherboard is important to know because you want to put the fastest memory you can. If it can support DDR3 PC2400 that would be a good upgrade. After that speed it's only marginal increases in performance. But you definitely need to look around for a better graphics card.

 

 

 

 

 

Basically think of it like this. The CPU is a pickup truck that can haul "X" amount of dirt to a worksite. At that worksite there are guys waiting to shovel it (they're your GPU). The guys can only shovel so much so getting a faster/bigger truck to haul more in doesn't do you any good if they're already having dirt build up.

 

 

 

The higher resolutions put a stronger load on the GPU. This means it's what becomes limiting and no matter how much faster a cpu you get you're still going to have that dirt piling up for the gpu.

 

 

 

You should look at 16GB or more of memory and a better graphics card. Look on ebay for both. Miners are dumping parts now and I bought a GTX 1080ti that might as well have been new. Runs like a charm.

 

Nice analogy. :)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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DDR4 1.2v RAM= 3w per (8GB) module: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-5960x-haswell-e-cpu,3918-13.html[/QUOTe]

 

I just took what the Micron spreadsheet calculated value as 8 watts per channel and 4 channels 8 slots as in my X99. :)

 

OP will only likely only have 2 channels but when it comes to guestimates it's near enough and errs on the conservative side and we haven't even considered efficiency.

 

So that leaves 600W to 750W for efficiency vs 850 to 950W for more of that ability to ride out holes (short interruptions of maybe a few cycles) in the mains.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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When I read my HWinfo data, it says my RAM needs 7.5-8w, total ? or per module ?

 

I do know they get very warm and if you push them they do get hot, it does make sense to cool them with some airflow if you surpass the 1.2v JDEC specs towards 1.35v+ and high MHz.

 

Just forget the 650w PSU's for any DCS rig imho. Those rigs here usually have a mid-to-top tier GPU, 16GB RAM, at least 1 SSH + HDD, many USB, etc .... the typical DCS rig is not the typical off-the-shelf Walmart box. People upgrade their stuff, PSU's age with time and loose efficiency, all that works against 650w. If you than have also picked a low-tier PSU, disaster is lurking around the corner.

 

Back to OT:

Since DDR3 is still very expensive, I would rather invest in DDR4 and get a new combo.

Not now, I'd wait for the new AMD. I think they could become the new mainstream rock-it-all

CPU's. We will see at which resolution a Ryzen2 @ 4.35GHz can still fill a 1080Ti.

At 1080p the Intel might still lead by a small margin but for higher resolutions, that new AMD should be perfect.

More cores over highest MHz, as long as both MHz somewhere are around ~4.5G. That should be the rule of thumb with the future in mind.

 

If you seek the highest MHz, Intel is your friend. The 8700k is the most brutal chip out there, it comes with some strings attached, delidding, Meltdown & Spectre, higher overall system cost.

 

I am not sure if I would by this rig in sig again, actually I doubt it. I love the speed, but my R5-1600x beats it in default clocks in mining by roughly 50%...HAHA what a joke Intel !

I can only imagine what a R2-2800x will do

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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When I read my HWinfo data, it says my RAM needs 7.5-8w, total ? or per module ?

 

 

That's the figure I got per channel with 2 slots (DIMMS) per channel.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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That's the figure I got per channel with 2 slots (DIMMS) per channel.

 

I have 4 x 8GB, so it would be 4 x that wattage ? or only 2 x, as per channel and not per module ?

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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I've got a 600w PSU and my rig runs fine.

 

the PSU is 6 years old. but a good make.

 

and its carried my 4.5 ghz overclock for 4 years.

 

i used to have a gtx690 (2 680 in one card SLI) which used way more power than my 1080 superclocked.

My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift.

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This is a quality list of the capacitors. Yes, a list of the capacitors used in your video card/motherboard/psu. On page 4, electrolytic cap life calculation. In the formula, T is the ambient temperature of the capacitor: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supplies-101,4193-5.html

 

The above example clearly shows that 10 °C difference in the operating temperature of an electrolytic capacitor can double or cut in half its estimated lifetime. In addition, caps with 105 °C rating have four times the life compared with similar specification caps that have an 85 °C temperature rating.

 

Exemple:

When your pc need 400w to run, a 85% efficiency psu will generate 69w of heat. Whatever the max load of this psu. A 90% efficiency psu will generate only 44w of heat.

But, when your pc (1080Ti sli) need 650w, you need a 90% efficiency psu, to generate 72w of heat. Not a 85% efficiency who will generate 105w of heat in the little box. A 92% will generate only 56w of heat...

 

- Determinate the wattage consumption of your pc, to determinate the efficiency that you need.

- Determinate the max wattage of your need.


Edited by Demon_

Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche.

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You wanna game or fry an egg :megalol:

 

:thumbup: you are the man Demon, your numbers always sting like a knife.

 

You cannot overstress the importance of a high quality PSU.

The more Wattage the better the rating has to be as well.

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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This is a quality list of the capacitors. Yes, a list of the capacitors used in your video card/motherboard/psu. On page 4, electrolytic cap life calculation. In the formula, T is the ambient temperature of the capacitor: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supplies-101,4193-5.html

 

The above example clearly shows that 10 °C difference in the operating temperature of an electrolytic capacitor can double or cut in half its estimated lifetime. In addition, caps with 105 °C rating have four times the life compared with similar specification caps that have an 85 °C temperature rating.

 

Exemple:

When your pc need 400w to run, a 85% efficiency psu will generate 69w of heat. Whatever the max load of this psu. A 90% efficiency psu will generate only 44w of heat.

But, when your pc (1080Ti sli) need 650w, you need a 90% efficiency psu, to generate 72w of heat. Not a 85% efficiency who will generate 105w of heat in the little box. A 92% will generate only 56w of heat...

 

- Determinate the wattage consumption of your pc, to determinate the efficiency that you need.

- Determinate the max wattage of your need.

 

Whilst true you also need to consider the efficiency curve for the specific PSU as peak efficiency usually occurs around 50 to 70% ratted power. So with about 450W load we'ed be looking at 750W assuming peak efficiency is at 60%.

 

This also means if the PUS were ratted at 85% efficiency at 450w load total usage at 450W supply would be 530W so the PSU heat losses would be about 80W.

 

Here more reading

 

:D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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450w (output) X 100 (%) / 85 (%) = 529w (input power) - 450w = 79w of heat. :thumbup: More heat in the metal box, faster degradation of the components.

 

The RM750w (page 4) efficiency is still at 88% at 100% load. Then, should not be so bad at 70+% load. https://www.corsair.com/ca/en/Power/rmx-series-config/p/CP-9020155-NA

 

But! Power supply max output are like RAM, don't get short of it. :D Remember the 8GB?


Edited by Demon_

Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche.

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