Wait... can amraam be used in SAM mode with no STT?

It should trigger the RWR warning only when you are in STT mode, or when the missile goes active.

Ok, you guys are not thinking from the perspective of an RWR..

An RWR does not know if you are in STT..

It only knows what it sees. The only necessary difference between TWS/HPRF and STT/HPRF is the scan. All the other differences are in the receiver and would thus not be seen by an enemy RWR.

STT means the radar is staring at the RWR, thus the amplitude is constantly strong. In TWS/RWS the amplitude varies with the scan of the antenna. A varying amplitude indicates a searching radar.

bugged target should not trigger the rwr of the target.

 

probably just EA thing, should be fix later.

SAM is not TWS. SAM is a sub-mode of RWS, hence all the raw hits around the priority track. Just because a priority target is selected does not mean that "bugging" a target in SAM works the same as "bugging" a target in TWS.

TWS and SAM are two different things. A "bug" only mean that a priority was selected.

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The DCS SAM mode has the radar stare at the target periodically (by stare I mean the antenna is fixed on the target, ie a lock). Thus, I believe the SAM mode should generate a lock tone. Same would be true for DTT, since it is a 50/50 "STT" split between two targets.

TWS would not generate a lock-on tone, because the antenna never stares at any target. TWS constantly scans, just like RWS.

I know where does that info comes from given that I fly that simulation since the first versions released in the 2000s. However that simulation cannot be used as a reference for DCS due to various reasons.

 

 

 

You did an interpretation yourself when you said "should not trigger". However the text you referenced uses the expression "reduced chance of being detected or

considered a threat - especially when compared to STT". Reduced is not zero.

 

ED so far has chosen to model as a 0% reduction, so it always trigger the RWR, and I cannot argue that they are wrong in ths regard.

should not trigger, does not mean it won`t trigger. also,if i ought to point out, you have not been locked up in the reak F16 by the real aircraft right ? so how how would you know it will trigger ? yes ED so far chosen to model as no reduction, but again, it`s EA version. do you know how will they approach this issue ? you are very welcome to tell us.

you won the conversation, now what do you get ? :smilewink:

I think beamscanner did a excellent job show us how to communicate.

and he did provide good information for me to learn at least.

Ok, you guys are not thinking from the perspective of an RWR..

 

An RWR does not know if you are in STT..

 

It only knows what it sees. The only necessary difference between TWS/HPRF and STT/HPRF is the scan. All the other differences are in the receiver and would thus not be seen by an enemy RWR.

 

....

 

The DCS SAM mode has the radar stare at the target periodically (by stare I mean the antenna is fixed on the target, ie a lock). Thus, I believe the SAM mode should generate a lock tone. Same would be true for DTT, since it is a 50/50 "STT" split between two targets.

Agree for the most part, for PD all RWR sees physics of the wave... so pulse width, length, PRF, and repetition time. Under optimal conditions of course, if the same plane is being painted with short range SAMs and some CW, or if its maneuvering and pulses hit blind spots and such, it may not accurately measure or allocate processing to the threat.

But ya, using your example, if the duty cycles are the same, and the waveform is the same, then it's just repetition. Roughly 3s or less for TWS vs. continuous. That's a big if though as not all are, and a lot of time and money is spent creating threat databases for the RWR to recognize. False positives are an issue as well. RAID, or the equivalent mode the the (v)9 that we won't be getting, can generate false lock. Also, due to tactical doctrine of how radar responsibilities between lead/wing to sort primary group and sanitize, as additional radars of the same type, particularly if in a tighter or trail formation, the likelihood of false locks and other RWR error increases. So while absent a false positive it won't indicate "lock," depending on the circumstances it very well may promote your threat level on the display or MC.

The Viper is a bit weird, as both RWS and TWS have SAM Submodes. SAM and TTS are submodes of RW; SMT is a submode of TWS. On the latter, SMT can track 9 targets in the TWS volume and perform RWS SAM on a bugged target, which can be located outside of the TWS scan pattern. (I said 8-10 before but actually 9). The TWS scan volume can be slewed, regardless of the bugged target position. And the antenna angle will show the same pause you observed in SAM, just after quickly moving to position outside the TWS volume.

Anyway I went up today and managed to discuss the issue in person. Confirmed that unlike TWS, SAM does momentarily pause the antenna like we are seeing in DCS. However, absent an error/false positive, it increases the probability of your detection, not STT type lock detection. RWS with a large volume, LRS in the 16, or VS in the 18, are likely to detect a target (unless low) before most RWR can detect the emitter's source type, azimuth and AOA to display the threat. I don't have hard numbers, as it varies with range and conditions, but with RWS max volume being low bookend and STT being high bookend, both TWS and SAM are closer to RWS at long ranges, with SAM having a higher probability. That's the best I got, its an understandably difficult topic because there are so many variables.

Range is the critical factor though. Sam mode, particularly two-target, is more effective at longer ranges due to the azimuth restrictions, and will actually automatically switch to STT as you close to ACM range. Reviewing f-16 capabilities though I am looking forward to seeing ED implementation of armraam DLZ/DMC info in the 16 (of a lot of things actually, target sorting/locklines/launchlines over MIDS, or if GCI sorting over link16 is implimented)... Anyway, on DLZ/DMC - We should have a range scale that shows Raero, Ropt, Rpi, Rtr and Rmin, shows the loft angle at current range, and display the heading change current target would be required to make to degrade PK from high qual to nominal on the HUD... as well as in the JHMCS. Should provides some fodder for missile debates

Yes but if you are going to use brevity terms it might behoove you to use them correctly. Otherwise you sound goofy or uneducated trying to sound good. The way you said it is about the same as someone asking you if they should go left or right and you say both left and right.

:thumbup:

A radar view of a Belgian F-16 seems to show the SAM scan pattern as it is in DCS currently. It is clearly not the same version as our F-16, but at least it gives the possibility that DCS' current SAM scan pattern might be true to life.

At 0:40, you can see the "locked" target, with the radar staying for a time on the target (the inverted T at the bottom), then scanning around and so on, just like in DCS currently.

A radar view of a Belgian F-16 seems to show the SAM scan pattern as it is in DCS currently. It is clearly not the same version as our F-16, but at least it gives the possibility that DCS' current SAM scan pattern might be true to life.

 

 

At 0:40, you can see the "locked" target, with the radar staying for a time on the target (the inverted T at the bottom), then scanning around and so on, just like in DCS currently.

Ya... toilet,

We confirmed via -34 and pilot reports that the behavior is correct. The lingering argument, or discussion, was related to how opposing force RWR’s should interpret it.

The net is that is should not produce a lock tone, but will increase detection probability over TWS. Actual response is variable though. It’s not an STT lock and shouldn’t alert as such, but spike management is something the US is very good at, whereas other countries may/are not. In a congested RF environment or if maneuvering is different from an artificially sterile DCS or other scenario where opposing jet isn’t processing multitude of potential threats. Also, ED RWR/EW model is definitely tweaked a bit from reality (likely not by choice, it’s among most closely guarded tech).

I firmly believe that the SAM mode will generate a STT indication..

It only takes an RWR a quarter of a second to process a lock on. And SAM mode has STT segments that last roughly 2 seconds.

I firmly believe that the SAM mode will generate a STT indication..

 

It only takes an RWR a quarter of a second to process a lock on. And SAM mode has STT segments that last roughly 2 seconds.

In any case it seems that ED decided to go through the route of not letting SAM generate a lock indication on adversary radar, per Wags comment on youtube:

Hi Low, yes, I can confirm. A bugged TWS system contact will not get a lock spike. We also adjusted this for a SAM track. Thanks

I firmly believe that the SAM mode will generate a STT indication..

 

It only takes an RWR a quarter of a second to process a lock on. And SAM mode has STT segments that last roughly 2 seconds.

I'm in no way an expert on the subject but i think that the information processing going through the RWR system is a bit more complex.

True it should "detect" a STT as you use SAM mode but it might be filtered out due not being a constant STT kind of signature, hence not triggering the STT lock warning

Currently both STT and SAM lock give the enemy a STT/Lock warning. However, they only receive launch warnings once your AMRAAM goes pitbull in both STT and SAM, which makes it kinda broken and semi-TWS at the moment.

I firmly believe that the SAM mode will generate a STT indication..

 

It only takes an RWR a quarter of a second to process a lock on. And SAM mode has STT segments that last roughly 2 seconds.

To echo, Beamscanner, you add a humongous amount to the discussions on this forum, and I am grateful you do, however, in this case, you seem to be assuming the logic behind the DCS simulation of RWR and lock warnings is a simple function of signal intensity, when there is likely a lot more to the simulation... or at least there could be more to it than just that. Furthermore, it may differ depending on the aircraft being bugged. The Su-27 may yield a lock warning, while the F-18 may not.

Thanks for this discussion... i've learned a great deal so far.

I'm in no way an expert on the subject but i think that the information processing going through the RWR system is a bit more complex.

True it should "detect" a STT as you use SAM mode but it might be filtered out due not being a constant STT kind of signature, hence not triggering the STT lock warning

I see. so you think all RWRs should wait at least 3 seconds to confirm that its just a momentary lock (~2 second STT, ~2 second scan, ~2 second STT, etc) rather than a full fledged lock on..? Is this delay modeled in all the RWRs? Is there anything indicating this to be true?

I agree that RWRs look at other factors as well for lock on indications (PRI, PD, Scan, etc) but I do not believe they have the luxury of waiting 3 seconds to inform the pilot of a lock on. (and that'd be 3 seconds on top of the normal signal processing delay)

To echo, Beamscanner, you add a humongous amount to the discussions on this forum, and I am grateful you do, however, in this case, you seem to be assuming the logic behind the DCS simulation of RWR and lock warnings is a simple function of signal intensity, when there is likely a lot more to the simulation... or at least there could be more to it than just that. Furthermore, it may differ depending on the aircraft being bugged. The Su-27 may yield a lock warning, while the F-18 may not.

 

Thanks for this discussion... i've learned a great deal so far.

I agree with you that other parameters are used by RWRs to distinguish lock vs search, etc.

That being said, are you assuming that the STT segments in SAM should have different radar parameters than a normal STT?

Given the sensitive nature of these things, i think it best for DCS to draw its own lines in the sand for what constitutes a lock on and when a missile launch should be indicated.

In this case, I believe the simplest and most probable answer is that the STT segment in SAM uses the same tracking, waveform (PRIs, PD, etc) and scan (antenna fixed on target, constant amplitude seen by RWR) as normal STT. We have no reason to believe that normal STT has a different signature than SAM STT segments (other than the STT stopping and starting every other ~2 seconds)

Thanks for the kind words.

Im currently reading up on U.S. RWR history and processing.

Does this not depend on the RWR because I can scan rapidly in a narrow search pattern, whats the difference between rapid focused (read within the aperture) scanning and a beam, if it isn't CW but a search radar?

I've not noticed DCS modelling the other persons scan pattern when on the receiving end, so I wonder if they have modelled the way some of the radars dwell on a target at all.

We get blips in search modes and nothing more refined in game.

A lot of this is trying to use the real world examples to understand DCS coding. I believe the code of RWR is much simplified in DCS and you can't take much for granted here.

let me provide you a reference, Growling Sidewinder had a DCS F16 VIPER AIR TO AIR Radar Tutorial.

 

 

I`m pretty sure he got this info from a different simulation.

 

we don`t have to interpret anything. it`s up to dev group how they want to do it.

 

so, yes, sam mode reduce the chance for being detected or considered a threat. the chance of revealing ownship position "may" be reduced.

 

if that`s true, how ?

 

if it`s not true. then why should we even consider using the sam mode ?

You would use SAM because it is essentially a more stable lock (not just track) as TWS, while also having marginal coverage of the surrounding area.

Basically RWS and TWS scan the whole volume you selected ... RWS gives you dots.

what TWS adds is "connecting the dots" over the dimension of time (creating tracks from them).

And STT is basically you focusing solely on that one target.

Here comes SAM.

SAM essentially does an STT on a target, but then switches to RWS to scan a small block around that target .. then goes back into STT. Afaik the cycle is every 2 seconds.

A RWR would usually pick up on that and give you the same warning as for an STT, as it detects a high pulse repetition frequency, combined with a lot of energy in a short amount of time (you're being focused).

Hope this helps,

Deadpool