TF-51D & Multi-crew

Hi all,

I wondered whether there was any plan to implement a multi-crew solution into the TF-51 Mustang? It would be great, as an aircraft every player of DCS World has, if it could be used to give people an introduction to the sim with an experienced pilot on board showing them the ropes. I appreciate that there is the L-39, but this requires people to purchase it, which for a new player that is unsure of whether or not they want to persevere with the Sim might be asking a bit much.

I know that there are members of my squad that would appreciate this kind of implementation as they are still unsure about DCS, because they're daunted by how much they have to set up and it's a different sim. Each time we have introduced someone though they've really liked it. I just think this could assist in that and increase the take up of the sim :)

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this,

Thanks,

Tom

Hi all,

 

I wondered whether there was any plan to implement a multi-crew solution into the TF-51 Mustang? It would be great, as an aircraft every player of DCS World has, if it could be used to give people an introduction to the sim with an experienced pilot on board showing them the ropes. I appreciate that there is the L-39, but this requires people to purchase it, which for a new player that is unsure of whether or not they want to persevere with the Sim might be asking a bit much.

 

I know that there are members of my squad that would appreciate this kind of implementation as they are still unsure about DCS, because they're daunted by how much they have to set up and it's a different sim. Each time we have introduced someone though they've really liked it. I just think this could assist in that and increase the take up of the sim :)

 

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this,

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

I would not be interested at all. In our squad we talk over TeamSpeak and take each other through any new aircraft as need be. After all, this is not real life and we can learn a lot quicker by mistakes, like crashing, and not worry about what would be real life penalties. Setting up controls is just one of those things that has to be done and if someone is not keen enough then dual control is not going to help their commitment as far as I can see. I think the PC pilot world provides quicker and better training by having the rookie in the captain seat and using TS. For me, there is so much more the developers could be doing to improve and expand DCS.

P.S. I successfully took off and landed the P51 on my first go after some keen and conscientious study on my part and with a P51 experienced squad mate instructing me on TeamSpeak.

Happy landings,

Talisman

With all due respect, that is what we do and it can work. However, for some people with langauge barriers trying to explain which knob/switch to press can be a challenge. Having duplicated controls would elminate that. Now they can use auto-start, but some people do not want to do that or do not find that to be the best way for them to learn.

I would appreciate that as a kind of conversion trainer. I'm happy to learn by myself and have done with each module so far, but not everyone has the time to be able to do that and they can appreciate the additional help. The ability to do this in the L-39 has been excellent, but the cost of the module is quite high as a speculative purchase if someone is not going to continue with the game, and they may not even continue with the aircraft - seeing as it is a trainer.

It's not something you have to use, it is a free aircraft and I can see that it would not be a top priority as it is not going to generate immediate revenue, but it could be an interesting and potentially useful addition to a free to play aircraft.

i know at least 3 modders (incl. myself), that have make it work in both SP/MP, however it would prolly fail Integrity Checks.

The Back seat will not have any instruments as it's simply a ride-a-long seat.

the 3D Cockpit would need a bit of adjustments if it were to be integrated by ED.

(Re-Build the back of the Pilot's seat, adjust some other items that were removed for backfacing optimization etc).

And maybe systems sync w/ Engine RPM / Prop Animation, Stick Pitch/Roll, Throttle, Canopy, and Rudder input etc etc)

Until the 3d Model of the cockpit is re-built so the backseat isnt looking through the missing seat back and pilot's body I doubt the mods would go public, as it would simply be unappealing.

I hadn't realised that they were not dual control, I thought some might have been converted to that. If that is the case then it would not be worthwhile at all.

Thanks for the info :)

The Current TF-51 cockpit rear seat is simply a ride along seat, there are not controls etc modeled.

If somebody is hosting a server, the trainee could join as the pilot and the teacher as an observer.

The teacher can lock is view onto the trainee's aircraft to observer and guide him by voice, over TS, or what ever.

What might be innovative and very handy would be if the teacher could put his view into the cockpit, and had a pointer that he could use to point out things to the trainee. He wouldn't have to be able to operate anything at all, just point to it.

Another nice feature would be to have a 'find the point-pointer' function like in Windows. To find the mouse-pointer; when you press and release <Ctrl>, a large circle is drawn around the mouse pointer, which then shrinks down to the pointer, to help you find it, if it's 'lost' on the desktop.

Set up a very simple permission menu to allow or disallow somebody from using the teacher's pointer and you'll be set to go.

I think both would be fairly simple to implement, and very useful for training purposes.

If somebody is hosting a server, the trainee could join as the pilot and the teacher as an observer.

 

The teacher can lock is view onto the trainee's aircraft to observer and guide him by voice, over TS, or what ever.

 

What might be innovative and very handy would be if the teacher could put his view into the cockpit, and had a pointer that he could use to point out things to the trainee. He wouldn't have to be able to operate anything at all, just point to it.

 

Another nice feature would be to have a 'find the point-pointer' function like in Windows. To find the mouse-pointer; when you press and release <Ctrl>, a large circle is drawn around the mouse pointer, which then shrinks down to the pointer, to help you find it, if it's 'lost' on the desktop.

 

Set up a very simple permission menu to allow or disallow somebody from using the teacher's pointer and you'll be set to go.

 

I think both would be fairly simple to implement, and very useful for training purposes.

That sounds like an interesting idea :)

Definitely that's the point!! As long as we can get a ride in a back seat, TF-51 would be a quite interesting aeroplane to train people and pull them in to DCS. Sometimes squadmates not used to DCS level of realism get disappointed on firsts tries without help so they don't 'waste' more time trying to learn, but provided we had the chance to ride along with them and explain things in real time that first impression can completely turn out so they can better enjoy the sim, and I keep saying that since TF became available.

Of course it would be even better to have a real double-seater double-control TF, instruction would be enhanced by 1000%, but just the possibility to ride in the same aeroplane yet as a passenger is enough to instruct people.

S!

I hadn't realised that they were not dual control, I thought some might have been converted to that. If that is the case then it would not be worthwhile at all.

 

Thanks for the info :)

That's literally what TF-51 (or TP-51) Mustangs are, full dual-control. TF stands for trainer fighter. There are 3 of them based 30 minutes from my house at Stallion 51, and several more out in the world. Rear cockpit has a full instrument stack and flight control setup. The TF modeled in DCS can't be called a TF at all really, it's just a D with a jumpseat.

Here's Crazy Horse 1's rear cockpit for example.

And how does riding with the trainee in the back seat have an advantage over riding with the trainee in the front seat?

How does flying the aircraft for the trainee help him learn to fly better than anything you could do right now?

From the back seat the trainer cannot see what controls the trainee is operating, nor point out any controls.

You guys are so caught up in the idea of 2 players in one aircraft, that you are overlooking other advantages of other solutions.

You can see the switches being switched, you can see the order. The Instructor (in whatever seat) can tell them where to look and follow through, like in the L-39. Ok, it doesn't, physically, move your stick or press any buttons on your HOTAS, that's up to the player to set up.

What has put some people off, in my experience so far, is the amount that they need to set up and they don't know where to start. They don't know what the controls relate to or whether or not they need them.

I have put together a spreadsheet of the different modules that I have with all of my controls listed. I have sat with people, on TS, and gone through their controls so that they can get going. Sometimes it's good to be able to show them though and short of going to visit, taking my PC and gear with me, that's not possible.

It would be good to have a way to be able to do this, if wanted, with a module that they do not have to buy. It won't be up everyone's street, but it may well work for some people. That was the original thinking behind my post.

The flying part is easy, most people can manage that, it's the start up and engine management that people appreciate being showed - knowing which dials to look at, and when. Knowing which levers to move, how far and when etc.

You will still have no pointer to use as a teaching aid. It may not be 100% conform to the concept of a simulation, but it's supposed to be a tool to help teach other DCS'lers to fly and manage their aircraft, and not simulate teaching a pilot-trainee to fly.

It could implement in general, as a feature of DCS, so as to be available on any aircraft for any position, and not just training aircraft. Think about all the modern aircraft with their highly complex weapons, navigation, and flight systems, AND weapons officer positions.

As the instructor, you would virtually be in the pilot's or WO's seat and see everything he can see. The only thing you couldn't do, would be to use the settings and controls, but the trainee is supposed to be doing that anyway and part of his learning experience, and not the instructor.

Implement it once, without having to touch a single module, and have it for all aircraft, all positions, for all time.

That sounds like pretty good Bang-For-The-Bucks™ to me.

Gentlemen, it seems to me you have just reinvented Twitch and similar streaming software :-)

I hadn't realised that they were not dual control, I thought some might have been converted to that. If that is the case then it would not be worthwhile at all.

 

Thanks for the info :)

A dual seat trainer version of the P-51 did not exist until long after WWII was over.

Gentlemen, it seems to me you have just reinvented Twitch and similar streaming software :-)

I don't know where you got that idea from. Nobody said anything about streaming a video.

A dual seat trainer version of the P-51 did not exist until long after WWII was over.

The idea is to create a tool for instructors to use as a teaching aid for DCS-pilots, which can be used regardless of which aircraft the student is learning to operate.

I don't know where you got that idea from. Nobody said anything about streaming a video.

Let's have a look at your previous post:

As the instructor, you would virtually be in the pilot's or WO's seat and see everything he can see.

This sounds like live streaming to me - you can see exactly what the trainee is doing.

The only thing you couldn't do, would be to use the settings and controls, but the trainee is supposed to be doing that anyway and part of his learning experience, and not the instructor.

Exactly, you are just observing and commenting via TS.

Implement it once, without having to touch a single module, and have it for all aircraft, all positions, for all time.

Sure, you can stream any module right now. :thumbup:

Let's have a look at your previous post:

This sounds like live streaming to me - you can see exactly what the trainee is doing.

Twitch is live-streaming, which is where you send an audio/video signal to a sight, which then broadcasts it to multiple clients simultaneously.

I'm talking about a DCS-pilot inviting a single MP spectator, who is to be the instructor and can then extend his spectator's POV possibilities to include viewing from inside the cockpit, and to additionally give the instructor a pointer as a training-aid, which the DCS-pilot can see.

The instructor must be running DCS, and have joined the same MP server as a spectator. The DCS-pilot is streaming nothing, and the spectator is receiving no video stream.

No broadcasting, no general viewership.

Exactly, you are just observing and commenting via TS.

As long as DCS does not have VOIP functionality, especially one which would allow 2 players to create their own channel, TeamSpeak or another similar app would be required.

Sure, you can stream any module right now. :thumbup:

You should understand the subject material before criticizing it.

You can currently join an MP server and lock your POV onto an aircraft, but you cannot put your POV into the cockpit. You can look in though the canopy, but that view is very poor for observing the instruments; plus you still have no pointer to assist in instructing a trainee.

A DCS-pilot could currently live-stream his screen through Twitch, or any other of a number of live-broadcasting apps. It would add the burden to the DCS-pilot's system of having to code a video broadcast, while carrying the heavy load of running DCS. That is a poor solution.

I think you guys are all missing the point.

A multicrew TF-51 might be kinda interesting for training DCS pilots, but the real draw of a feature like this would be providing a joyride or orientation flight for a friend, acquaintance, or prospective flight simmer (i.e. someone who doesn't already own a joystick, or has never tried a flight sim).

If a ride-along seat were implemented, that means someone with zero accessories could have a very immersive experience of being a passenger (as opposed to currently, where they would download the game cold, and simply fumble about with switches and maybe crash on take-off). This would be a great, easy way to show anybody what DCS is all about, without having to convince them to buy a joystick or download any paid modules.

The current VR revolution will only make such a feature even more valuable.

I think you guys are all missing the point.

 

A multicrew TF-51 might be kinda interesting for training DCS pilots, but the real draw of a feature like this would be providing a joyride or orientation flight for a friend, acquaintance, or prospective flight simmer (i.e. someone who doesn't already own a joystick, or has never tried a flight sim).

 

If a ride-along seat were implemented, that means someone with zero accessories could have a very immersive experience of being a passenger (as opposed to currently, where they would download the game cold, and simply fumble about with switches and maybe crash on take-off). This would be a great, easy way to show anybody what DCS is all about, without having to convince them to buy a joystick or download any paid modules.

 

The current VR revolution will only make such a feature even more valuable.

Good thinking, especially from a marketing perspective. DCS is one of the most impressive VR experiences at the moment but has a steep learning curve.

I've thought of that too. It would be fun to take somebody up for a spin, especially if you could put VR goggles on them and slide under a bridge or two, or let them see the ground above in a loop :lol:

Unfortunately, your victim-I mean-guest would need to download and install DCS and have at least a system with enough power to run it, and VR goggles :huh:. But even if they could just look around with the num-pad numbers, it might be fun for them, and get some interested in delving deeper into the rabbit hole :smilewink:.

Sometimes, cheap thrill are the best thrills :D

If somebody is hosting a server, the trainee could join as the pilot and the teacher as an observer.

 

The teacher can lock is view onto the trainee's aircraft to observer and guide him by voice, over TS, or what ever.

 

What might be innovative and very handy would be if the teacher could put his view into the cockpit, and had a pointer that he could use to point out things to the trainee. He wouldn't have to be able to operate anything at all, just point to it.

 

Another nice feature would be to have a 'find the point-pointer' function like in Windows. To find the mouse-pointer; when you press and release <Ctrl>, a large circle is drawn around the mouse pointer, which then shrinks down to the pointer, to help you find it, if it's 'lost' on the desktop.

 

Set up a very simple permission menu to allow or disallow somebody from using the teacher's pointer and you'll be set to go.

 

I think both would be fairly simple to implement, and very useful for training purposes.

Nice idea，it is a interesting experience for observer ,especially he want to learn how to use P-51 effectively(including me)

Sometimes, cheap thrill are the best thrills :D

Except the cheap thrill would cost ED plenty and net them...not much.

Would it? It would be a place you could sit in and basically do nothing else, other than look around and ride along.

The seat is already modeled, so there's nothing to do there.

Maybe all ED would have to do--very very Very VERY vErY VeRy simply stated--would be to cut-n-past the code for adding the rear position from the L-39 into the F-51D and shoot it into an update.

I trust ED will asses the value of a functional jumper-seat vs the work to put it out there.

It would only be like developers releasing a demo, but then at the same time they have already kind of done that by including two free aircraft in DCS World. I've just had a few people put off by all of the switches and finding it a bit intimidating (at first). Coming from something like IL2 to this is quite a jump for some people. Once they get into it they tend to love it, but it's helping them to get into it that can be the first step.

I appreciate the interest in the idea though. It's a shame that the L-39C isn't a free aircraft in place of one of the others, but I can see why it isn't.