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[NO BUG] flight model


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It's probably spot on for a completely clean jet with 162lbs of fuel in it. You've also got the flaps down full and would have broken them in that position with such excessive "g". Read the first comment on YouTube for your video: yes, at such unrealistic settings, it probably would turn that well for about a quarter of the turn before both engines die of fuel starvation.

 

Even a clean F-14A at such low fuel state will turn like a bastard. Paul T. Gillcrist, RADM (Ret) wrote about the F-14A's airshow demonstration to the Shah of Iran in the book "TOMCAT! The Grumman F-14 Story." In it, he explains that the F-14 started its show with only 2,500lbs of fuel (15.4%). The aircraft took off with full afterburner, executed a chunk of the show, bringing the fuel state even lower, then "at mid-field at about 1,000 feet and 350 knots with wings swept to 40 degrees [the Tomcat] went into a full-afterburner 360 degree turn staying within the field boundray and during its 8 1/2 "g" turn, accelerated to 400 knots."1 This implies that a clean, TF-30 powered F-14A, with somewhere in the vicinity of 10% fuel or less, will sustain more than 8.5g at 1,000 feet when starting at 350 knots, since the jet accelerated to 400 by the turn's end.

 

You are showing an F110 powered F-14B at 1% fuel, clean, with flaps down. If it could be tested without trashing the jet, it probably would be somewhere around what your video shows.

 

References:

1. Paul T. Gillcrist, RADM (Ret.), "TOMCAT! The Grumman F-14 Story, (Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1994), 51.


Edited by Quid
grammar

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It's probably spot on for a completely clean jet with 162lbs of fuel in it. You've also got the flaps down full and would have broken them in that position with such excessive "g". Read the first comment on YouTube for your video: yes, at such unrealistic settings, it probably would turn that well for about a quarter of the turn before both engines die of fuel starvation.

 

Even a clean F-14A at such low fuel state will turn like a bastard. Paul T. Gillcrist, RADM (Ret) wrote about the F-14A's airshow demonstration to the Shah of Iran in the book "TOMCAT! The Grumman F-14 Story." In it, he explains that the F-14 started its show with only 2,500lbs of fuel (15.4%). The aircraft took off with full afterburner, executed a chunk of the show, bringing the fuel state even lower, then "at mid-field at about 1,000 feet and 350 knots with wings swept to 40 degrees [the Tomcat] went into a full-afterburner 360 degree turn staying within the field boundray and during its 8 1/2 "g" turn, accelerated to 400 knots."1 This implies that a clean, TF-30 powered F-14A, with somewhere in the vicinity of 10% fuel or less, will sustain more than 8.5g at 1,000 feet when starting at 350 knots, since the jet accelerated to 400 by the turn's end.

 

You are showing an F110 powered F-14B at 1% fuel, clean, with flaps down. If it could be tested without trashing the jet, it probably would be somewhere around what your video shows.

 

References:

1. Paul T. Gillcrist, RADM (Ret.), "TOMCAT! The Grumman F-14 Story, (Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1994), 51.

 

ok ok ok, let's compare like with Shah of Iran :)

let's test with 15% fuel (1134kg, 2500lbs) alt same (20m), full flaps

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

580.0 580.6 29.13 12.36 10.83 8.27 0.4740 83.42 1.50 1.00 no data 0.6760

560.0 560.5 29.48 12.21 11.51 8.07 0.4577 83.31 1.66 1.00 no data 0.6960

540.0 540.5 29.83 12.07 12.26 7.85 0.4413 83.21 1.85 1.00 no data 0.7173

520.0 520.5 30.16 11.94 13.10 7.62 0.4250 83.11 2.09 1.00 no data 0.7400

500.0 500.5 29.83 12.07 13.92 7.23 0.4086 82.89 2.43 1.00 no data 0.7564

480.0 480.5 29.31 12.28 14.78 6.80 0.3923 82.72 2.91 1.00 no data 0.7707

[/TABLE]

 

test with 10% fuel (735kg, 1620lbs) alt same (20m), full flaps

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

580.0 580.6 29.88 12.05 10.83 8.48 0.4740 83.58 1.47 1.00 no data 0.6732

560.0 560.5 30.23 11.91 11.51 8.27 0.4577 83.48 1.62 1.00 no data 0.6932

540.0 540.5 30.59 11.77 12.27 8.05 0.4413 83.37 1.81 1.00 no data 0.7146

520.0 520.5 30.91 11.65 13.10 7.81 0.4250 83.28 2.05 1.00 no data 0.7373

500.0 500.5 30.43 11.83 13.92 7.37 0.4086 83.03 2.39 1.00 no data 0.7527

480.0 480.5 29.92 12.03 14.79 6.94 0.3923 82.84 2.86 1.00 no data 0.7672 [/TABLE]

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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ok ok ok, let's compare like with Shah of Iran :)

let's test with 15% fuel (1134kg, 2500lbs) alt same (20m), full flaps

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

580.0 580.6 29.13 12.36 10.83 8.27 0.4740 83.42 1.50 1.00 no data 0.6760

560.0 560.5 29.48 12.21 11.51 8.07 0.4577 83.31 1.66 1.00 no data 0.6960

540.0 540.5 29.83 12.07 12.26 7.85 0.4413 83.21 1.85 1.00 no data 0.7173

520.0 520.5 30.16 11.94 13.10 7.62 0.4250 83.11 2.09 1.00 no data 0.7400

500.0 500.5 29.83 12.07 13.92 7.23 0.4086 82.89 2.43 1.00 no data 0.7564

480.0 480.5 29.31 12.28 14.78 6.80 0.3923 82.72 2.91 1.00 no data 0.7707

[/TABLE]

 

test with 10% fuel (735kg, 1620lbs) alt same (20m), full flaps

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

580.0 580.6 29.88 12.05 10.83 8.48 0.4740 83.58 1.47 1.00 no data 0.6732

560.0 560.5 30.23 11.91 11.51 8.27 0.4577 83.48 1.62 1.00 no data 0.6932

540.0 540.5 30.59 11.77 12.27 8.05 0.4413 83.37 1.81 1.00 no data 0.7146

520.0 520.5 30.91 11.65 13.10 7.81 0.4250 83.28 2.05 1.00 no data 0.7373

500.0 500.5 30.43 11.83 13.92 7.37 0.4086 83.03 2.39 1.00 no data 0.7527

480.0 480.5 29.92 12.03 14.79 6.94 0.3923 82.84 2.86 1.00 no data 0.7672 [/TABLE]

 

Again, you oversped the flaps. There is no perf. data in the aircraft performance manuals for those envelopes of flight let alone full AUX flaps deployed. So congrats, you broke it.

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Again, you oversped the flaps. There is no perf. data in the aircraft performance manuals for those envelopes of flight let alone full AUX flaps deployed. So congrats, you broke it.

 

Flaps don't broken in DCS game. OverG is realistic.

 

Ok, let's see with 2,500lbs fuel without full flaps...

turn rate 26.32 deg/s, turn time 13.68 sec :music_whistling:

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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With that amount of fuel you're still looking at a jet with a ~1.25:1 thrust:weight ratio, no extra drag, plus a wing that by definition optimizes itself to fly at low Mach numbers (and Mach 0.5 isn't even that low). 26 deg/s is honestly not that surprising, especially for something with much more thrust than an F-14A.

 

 

Honestly, whatever it is you're trying to prove, it just shows you do not understand EM charts.

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maybe invulnerability turned on as well ? usually if you full pull at that speed the wings would break off. so basically turning on all things to prevent the plane from desintegrating does not proof that the FDE are off.

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Flaps don't broken in DCS game. OverG is realistic.

 

Ok, let's see with 2,500lbs fuel without full flaps...

turn rate 26.32 deg/s, turn time 13.68 sec :music_whistling:

 

 

None of the charts are modeled there, but using Gillcrist's description of the less-powerful F-14A's show, that looks about correct. You're on the deck at corner velocity with F110 engines at 15.4% fuel, clean. The F-14A did it with TF-30s at 8.5g entering at 350 - above corner velocity, wings at 40 degrees, not 20-22, and accelerating, albeit probably closer to 1500lbs of fuel. You're using an F-14B with F110s at 8g and AT corner velocity (~310), wings at ~22 degrees with maneuver flaps out (auto), and sustaining albeit with 2500lbs of fuel (only 1000 extra pounds). Seems like it's right where it should be.


Edited by Quid
Wrong percentage.

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If you want to test the EM charts, then you need to test it like in the EM charts. 10000lbs of fuel and either a 4x4 or 2x2x2 loadout depend on which of the two charts you use. Then, add 3° turnrate with flaps deployed, this comes from grumman, but there are no charts for flaps. However, you overspeed, you get the penalty of drag, kaput flaps and so on.

 

The flight model is exact, and if you fly with 1% or 15% fuel and no loadout, yes you get a turning monster. No one does that anyway, except some, who try to prove that our "flight model is wrong", without even knowing how to read the proper EM charts and how to test them with results that really say something. But even so, what you show is realistic. You will just have to finally come to terms with it, no matter how much you believe that it is not.

 

The FM hits the EM charts on point. Flaps add 3°/sec turnrate. Flaps that overspeed will penalize you. Let us please move on from this issue, because - unfortunately I have to say it that bluntly - unless you show us something that comes from Grumman that contradicts the 3°/sec turn rate boost (which comes from Grumman, too), we will not change it, just because you feel it is "OP". If you think it is, please go ahead and "win" in BFM with 1% or 15% percent fuel... A complete null-argument. Sorry guys, but really this kind of testing or "proof" leads nowhere.

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Hello IronMike! Please check and compare this data!

 

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

440 474 15,04 23,94 16,58 3,51 0,3938 76,67 6,25 0,2857 no data 0,6224

460 495,5 15,68 22,96 15,84 3,82 0,4116 77,01 5,03 0,2857 no data 0,6207

480 517,1 16,29 22,1 15,18 4,13 0,4295 77,67 4,3 0,2857 no data 0,6195

500 538,6 16,79 21,43 14,48 4,44 0,4474 78,28 3,7 0,2857 no data 0,6101

520 560,1 16,97 21,21 13,8 4,67 0,4653 78,69 3,28 0,2857 no data 0,5938

540 581,7 17,14 21,01 13,17 4,9 0,4832 79,08 2,94 0,2857 no data 0,5782

560 603,2 17,24 20,88 12,56 5,11 0,5011 79,44 2,65 0,2857 no data 0,5622

580 624,8 17,12 21,03 11,88 5,27 0,519 79,67 2,41 0,2857 no data 0,5447

600 646,3 17,1 21,05 11,4 5,45 0,5369 79,95 2,22 0,2857 no data 0,5335

620 667,9 17,17 20,96 11,07 5,65 0,5548 80,28 2,07 0,2857 no data 0,5755

640 689,4 16,43 21,92 11,89 5,57 0,5727 80,21 2,25 0 no data 0,6434

660 711 16,56 21,74 11,71 5,78 0,5906 80,56 2,13 0 no data 0,6396

680 732,5 16,51 21,8 11,42 5,95 0,6085 80,78 2,01 0 no data 0,6325

700 754 16,43 21,91 11,15 6,09 0,6264 80,99 1,91 0 no data 0,6254

720 775,6 16,25 22,15 10,94 6,2 0,6443 81,12 1,84 0 no data 0,624

740 797,1 16,14 22,31 10,78 6,33 0,6622 81,29 1,77 0 no data 0,6299

760 818,7 15,96 22,55 10,63 6,43 0,6801 81,41 1,71 0 no data 0,6353

780 840,2 15,68 22,96 10,49 6,48 0,698 81,47 1,67 0 no data 0,6399

800 861,8 15,95 22,57 10,35 6,76 0,7159 81,82 1,58 0 no data 0,6494

820 883,3 16,1 22,37 10,22 6,99 0,7338 82,08 1,51 0 no data 0,6576

840 904,9 16,2 22,23 10,11 7,2 0,7517 82,31 1,44 0 no data 0,6657

860 926,4 16,55 21,75 10,01 7,53 0,7696 82,64 1,37 0 no data 0,6757

880 947,9 16,65 21,62 9,73 7,76 0,7875 82,84 1,29 0 no data 0,6793

900 969,5 16,8 21,43 9,42 8,01 0,8054 83,05 1,21 0 no data 0,6816

920 991 16,33 22,05 8,88 7,97 0,8233 82,99 1,15 0 no data 0,668

940 1012,6 16,39 21,97 8,58 8,18 0,8412 83,16 1,08 0 no data 0,6574

960 1034,1 15,96 22,55 8,24 8,14 0,8591 83,11 1,04 0 no data 0,6418

980 1055,7 15,22 23,65 7,91 7,93 0,877 82,92 1,03 0 no data 0,6244

1000 1077,2 14,54 24,76 7,66 7,74 0,8949 82,73 1,02 0 no data 0,6093

1020 1098,7 13,73 26,23 7,34 7,46 0,9128 82,45 1,01 0 no data 0,5917

1040 1120,3 13,09 27,51 6,97 7,27 0,9307 82,23 0,9859 0 no data 0,5736

1060 1141,8 12,73 28,29 6,63 7,21 0,9486 82,15 0,9465 0 no data 0,5586

1080 1163,4 12,19 29,54 6,32 7,04 0,9665 81,96 0,9269 0 no data 0,5433

1100 1184,9 11,72 30,71 6,02 6,91 0,9844 81,79 0,8996 0 no data 0,5288

1120 1206,5 11,3 31,85 5,74 6,79 1 81,63 0,8697 0 no data 0,5155

1140 1228 11,08 32,49 5,56 6,77 1,02 81,6 0,8465 0 no data 0,5045

1160 1249,6 10,83 33,24 5,36 6,74 1,04 81,57 0,8231 0 no data 0,492

1180 1271,1 10,68 33,7 5,13 6,77 1,06 81,59 0,7853 0 no data 0,4753

1200 1292,6 9,99 36,03 4,64 6,5 1,07 81,24 0,7409 0 no data 0,4495

1220 1314,2 8,49 42,38 3,8 5,64 1,09 79,85 0,6997 0 no data 0,4046

1240 1335,7 6,64 54,22 2,87 4,48 1,11 77,16 0,6664 0 no data 0,3407

1260 1357,3 5,14 70,02 2,13 3,59 1,13 74 0,6048 0 no data 0,2795

1280 1378,8 4,11 87,57 1,56 2,97 1,15 70,5 0,5412 0 no data 0,2252

1300 1400,4 3,31 108,7 1,1 2,51 1,16 66,01 0,4652 0 no data 0,1748

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=240683&stc=1&d=1592853199

 

Here test config

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=236060&d=1589796419

 

compare with (1.24 degree/sec better in DCS)

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/59488976/71751688-a195e880-2e7c-11ea-9c3f-a1d93688ed16.png

F14.png.e27c31e3812353f9ac9f1e4249d5a28c.png

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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Hello IronMike! Please check and compare this data!

 

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

440 474 15,04 23,94 16,58 3,51 0,3938 76,67 6,25 0,2857 no data 0,6224

460 495,5 15,68 22,96 15,84 3,82 0,4116 77,01 5,03 0,2857 no data 0,6207

480 517,1 16,29 22,1 15,18 4,13 0,4295 77,67 4,3 0,2857 no data 0,6195

500 538,6 16,79 21,43 14,48 4,44 0,4474 78,28 3,7 0,2857 no data 0,6101

520 560,1 16,97 21,21 13,8 4,67 0,4653 78,69 3,28 0,2857 no data 0,5938

540 581,7 17,14 21,01 13,17 4,9 0,4832 79,08 2,94 0,2857 no data 0,5782

560 603,2 17,24 20,88 12,56 5,11 0,5011 79,44 2,65 0,2857 no data 0,5622

580 624,8 17,12 21,03 11,88 5,27 0,519 79,67 2,41 0,2857 no data 0,5447

600 646,3 17,1 21,05 11,4 5,45 0,5369 79,95 2,22 0,2857 no data 0,5335

620 667,9 17,17 20,96 11,07 5,65 0,5548 80,28 2,07 0,2857 no data 0,5755

640 689,4 16,43 21,92 11,89 5,57 0,5727 80,21 2,25 0 no data 0,6434

660 711 16,56 21,74 11,71 5,78 0,5906 80,56 2,13 0 no data 0,6396

680 732,5 16,51 21,8 11,42 5,95 0,6085 80,78 2,01 0 no data 0,6325

700 754 16,43 21,91 11,15 6,09 0,6264 80,99 1,91 0 no data 0,6254

720 775,6 16,25 22,15 10,94 6,2 0,6443 81,12 1,84 0 no data 0,624

740 797,1 16,14 22,31 10,78 6,33 0,6622 81,29 1,77 0 no data 0,6299

760 818,7 15,96 22,55 10,63 6,43 0,6801 81,41 1,71 0 no data 0,6353

780 840,2 15,68 22,96 10,49 6,48 0,698 81,47 1,67 0 no data 0,6399

800 861,8 15,95 22,57 10,35 6,76 0,7159 81,82 1,58 0 no data 0,6494

820 883,3 16,1 22,37 10,22 6,99 0,7338 82,08 1,51 0 no data 0,6576

840 904,9 16,2 22,23 10,11 7,2 0,7517 82,31 1,44 0 no data 0,6657

860 926,4 16,55 21,75 10,01 7,53 0,7696 82,64 1,37 0 no data 0,6757

880 947,9 16,65 21,62 9,73 7,76 0,7875 82,84 1,29 0 no data 0,6793

900 969,5 16,8 21,43 9,42 8,01 0,8054 83,05 1,21 0 no data 0,6816

920 991 16,33 22,05 8,88 7,97 0,8233 82,99 1,15 0 no data 0,668

940 1012,6 16,39 21,97 8,58 8,18 0,8412 83,16 1,08 0 no data 0,6574

960 1034,1 15,96 22,55 8,24 8,14 0,8591 83,11 1,04 0 no data 0,6418

980 1055,7 15,22 23,65 7,91 7,93 0,877 82,92 1,03 0 no data 0,6244

1000 1077,2 14,54 24,76 7,66 7,74 0,8949 82,73 1,02 0 no data 0,6093

1020 1098,7 13,73 26,23 7,34 7,46 0,9128 82,45 1,01 0 no data 0,5917

1040 1120,3 13,09 27,51 6,97 7,27 0,9307 82,23 0,9859 0 no data 0,5736

1060 1141,8 12,73 28,29 6,63 7,21 0,9486 82,15 0,9465 0 no data 0,5586

1080 1163,4 12,19 29,54 6,32 7,04 0,9665 81,96 0,9269 0 no data 0,5433

1100 1184,9 11,72 30,71 6,02 6,91 0,9844 81,79 0,8996 0 no data 0,5288

1120 1206,5 11,3 31,85 5,74 6,79 1 81,63 0,8697 0 no data 0,5155

1140 1228 11,08 32,49 5,56 6,77 1,02 81,6 0,8465 0 no data 0,5045

1160 1249,6 10,83 33,24 5,36 6,74 1,04 81,57 0,8231 0 no data 0,492

1180 1271,1 10,68 33,7 5,13 6,77 1,06 81,59 0,7853 0 no data 0,4753

1200 1292,6 9,99 36,03 4,64 6,5 1,07 81,24 0,7409 0 no data 0,4495

1220 1314,2 8,49 42,38 3,8 5,64 1,09 79,85 0,6997 0 no data 0,4046

1240 1335,7 6,64 54,22 2,87 4,48 1,11 77,16 0,6664 0 no data 0,3407

1260 1357,3 5,14 70,02 2,13 3,59 1,13 74 0,6048 0 no data 0,2795

1280 1378,8 4,11 87,57 1,56 2,97 1,15 70,5 0,5412 0 no data 0,2252

1300 1400,4 3,31 108,7 1,1 2,51 1,16 66,01 0,4652 0 no data 0,1748

[/TABLE]

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=240683&stc=1&d=1592853199

 

Here test config

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=236060&d=1589796419

 

compare with (1.24 degree/sec better in DCS)

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/59488976/71751688-a195e880-2e7c-11ea-9c3f-a1d93688ed16.png

 

 

 

 

Thank you for this extensive body of work. Is this flown with flaps out?

 

 

Also, we need an acmi and track to see how you are flying the turns please. Personally I trust only 1 person in the world to fly such tests exactly, which he does for us. Else we run tests computed, because most humans are not capable of flying the turns each time exactly. Also was your fuel set to unlimited?


Edited by IronMike

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

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Thank you for this extensive body of work. Is this flown with flaps out?

 

 

Also, we need an acmi and track to see how you are flying the turns please. Personally I trust only 1 person in the world to fly such tests exactly, which he does for us. Else we run tests computed, because most humans are not capable of flying the turns each time exactly. Also was your fuel set to unlimited?

 

Yes, fuel is unlimited. All params in .trk file in attach. I'm don't touch flaps. And I don't trust human too, but there is not human. This is handmade "test turn autopilot" who moving Joystick instead human :) And he don't make any mistake. But .trk files in F-14 module sometimes can play with errors.

attachment.php?attachmentid=240706&stc=1&d=1592866297

f-14-turn.thumb.jpg.85daada2105ce31d7ce7fcf51392b66f.jpg

f-14-turn.trk

acmi_and_trk_file.zip

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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If you mean you're having an AI execute the turn, then you're comparing apples and oranges. AIs do not use the same FM as player aircraft.

 

No, this is no AI. This is program, who see flight params in game and send command to virtual joystick.

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

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Ok, great, thank you. Our Flight model engineers will take a closer look. So far it looks however that we're off by up to 1.2 seconds - you can see that best for mach 0.6. This is within an acceptable margin of error tbh, anything below 1.5 seconds being off is not really worth touching upon and I doubt many FMs would fall within that margin, without feeling "forced" or "scripted". A flight model consist of 2 parts: performance and feel. If anything your test proves that we are extremely close. (You need to compare with the Ps=0 curve on the EM chart, in case someone did not know.)

 

Fat Creason will take a look if possible to bring it even closer, but I doubt that he will touch upon it, unless the margin would be 1.5 seconds or bigger.

 

Anything below that is not really noticeable and will not make a difference between you winning or losing in the Tomcat. Ppl will have to come to terms with it that she simply was an outstanding turner and that she is not "OP" or "pay to win" as commented below the initial video (comments have since been removed), just because they get outturned by it. You shouldn't be turning with a Tomcat in the first place, there are many ways to beat it, and those 1.2 seconds more or less do not make a difference or make it "unbeatable".

 

Thank you again for your effort and for these tests, it is nice to compare them with our internal tests.


Edited by IronMike

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If you are losing to a Tomcat in BFM it is entirely YOUR fault and YOU not knowing how to fly your aircraft (or enter your fight). The Tomcat has a huge lifting body when clean, exceptional high lift devices and vortex lift. If you are flying a Hornet or Flanker, go one-circle with it, get it slow. Every plane can technically and practically win against any other plane if he fights his fight. Anything except a controlled environment (agreed upon merge and guns only) will lead to different results and is very dependant on the reaction time, SA and the pilots "skills" so to speak. You wouldn't want to merge in a Tomcat when you are facing a Mig-29 or SU-27 online, or anything with an HMD and HOBS missiles. Reality is, unless you really have the drop on someone or he overhoots without shooting you beforehand, a guns only scenario is fairly rare and I'd say almost never happens in any sandbox online environment. You also cant really control the weather or temperature of the environement you are flying in. What if it's mid summer and 40°C outside? What if it's winter and -15°C? There are far too many variables in a practical engagement that you'd find a practical application for any EM or performance charts. The Tomcat is also made for BVR and pre-merge engagements. You have all the tools you need to cover all ranges (the AWG-9, the Phoenix, Sparrow, TCS for VID far before the merge, good SA via datalink and all aspect Sidewinders). If you really think this sustained turn advantage which apparently only some external autopilot can fly perfectly gives you the edge against any other 4th gen you find yourself in the merge with then I don't know what else to say.

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Something else. Under DCS we are all virtual pilots and do not feel the G. We can therefore in the same way say that all the other planes are "cheating" and the debate will not end. I have already seen in dogfight players in su27 or F16 take out the landing gear in full dogfight. If some are not happy to lose vs F14 and want to be The Killer in dogfight servers they have to buy it (at the moment it is free) and will see that it is not so easy to fly F14.

 

 

sorry for my english I'm french


Edited by Kaiju

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Guys, let's leave the tips and evaluation BFM/AFM.

Now there is already a discussion of the conformity of the FM with EM charts with the application of tests. I believe that HB knows what he is doing and will clarify the situation.


Edited by Hummel

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Guys, let's leave the tips and evaluation BFM/AFM.

Now there is already a discussion of the conformity of the FM with EM charts with the application of tests. I believe that HB knows what he is doing and will clarify the situation.

 

 

 

 

Maybe I should be a bit more clear on this: there is nothing wrong with the FM (= we believe there are no major deficiencies with the FM, we are not infallible ofc, there can always be minor issues). Anything that falls below a margin of 1.5 seconds is acceptable and negligable - and I would like to see where all other modules fall in to place flying an entire EM chart, again without feeling forced or scripted. A human will never fly turns that precise like a machine does (being off by 1.2 seconds) and will most likely be on point or even slower. Thus there is nothing to fix really. I would also like to add that EM charts themselves are extrapolated from theoretical values, since it would literally be impossible to test the plane IRL at a constant fuel state, especially with Afterburners on, like in these charts.

 

That said, since we are perfectionists, we will look at that last 1 second margin, too, if time allows, but no promise for now. I btw seriously doubt even class D simulators would attempt to get below that kind of a small margin, as EM charts aren't even in the list of FAA/EASA tests. I do hope that we can put the debate if the Tomcat turns as it should or not to bed now. If anyone brings it up, you can reply that "it is within a 1.2 second margin of error, which is more than acceptable," (and most likely more precise than most consumer flight models that exist today). :)


Edited by IronMike

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Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

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If anyone brings it up, you can reply that "it is within a 1.2 second margin of error, which is more than acceptable," (and most likely more precise than most consumer flight models that exist today). :)

Exactly :) ! But dufferent of turn rate 1.3 deg/sec equal different ~1500kg (~3500 pounds) of weight!

Please see data with 59110 pounds gross weight:

 

[TABLE]IAS (km/h) TAS (km/h) turn rate (d/sec) turn time (sec) aoa ny mach roll pitch flaps noseflap stick Y

420 452,4 12,87 27,97 17,15 2,9 0,3758 76,11 9,48 0,2857 no data 0,6514

430 463,2 13,51 26,65 16,89 3,11 0,3848 75,69 7,76 0,2857 no data 0,6546

440 474 14,02 25,68 16,57 3,29 0,3937 75,61 6,53 0,2857 no data 0,6566

450 484,7 14,32 25,14 16,2 3,43 0,4027 75,72 5,81 0,2857 no data 0,6556

460 495,5 14,61 24,65 15,83 3,58 0,4116 76,01 5,3 0,2857 no data 0,6548

470 506,3 14,89 24,18 15,49 3,72 0,4206 76,35 4,89 0,2857 no data 0,654

480 517,1 15,16 23,75 15,17 3,86 0,4295 76,76 4,54 0,2857 no data 0,6535

490 527,8 15,43 23,33 14,84 4,01 0,4385 77,1 4,22 0,2857 no data 0,6509

500 538,6 15,61 23,06 14,47 4,14 0,4474 77,39 3,93 0,2857 no data 0,6445

510 549,4 15,7 22,93 14,12 4,25 0,4564 77,6 3,69 0,2857 no data 0,6368

520 560,1 15,78 22,81 13,79 4,36 0,4653 77,82 3,48 0,2857 no data 0,6295

530 570,9 15,86 22,69 13,47 4,46 0,4743 78,04 3,29 0,2857 no data 0,6223

540 581,7 15,94 22,58 13,16 4,57 0,4832 78,27 3,12 0,2857 no data 0,6152

550 592,5 16,03 22,46 12,87 4,68 0,4922 78,5 2,97 0,2857 no data 0,6085

560 603,2 16,04 22,44 12,56 4,77 0,5011 78,67 2,82 0,2857 no data 0,6006

570 614 15,99 22,52 12,19 4,85 0,5101 78,78 2,68 0,2857 no data 0,5911

580 624,8 15,95 22,57 11,88 4,92 0,519 78,91 2,57 0,2857 no data 0,5847

590 635,6 15,93 22,59 11,62 5 0,528 79,07 2,46 0,2857 no data 0,5792

600 646,3 15,94 22,58 11,4 5,09 0,5369 79,23 2,37 0,2857 no data 0,5746

610 657,1 15,97 22,54 11,22 5,19 0,5459 79,41 2,28 0,2857 no data 0,5708

620 667,9 16,02 22,47 11,07 5,29 0,5548 79,59 2,21 0,2857 no data 0,5675

630 678,6 15,26 23,59 11,99 5,1 0,5638 79,31 2,46 0 no data 0,6385

640 689,4 15,33 23,48 11,89 5,21 0,5727 79,52 2,39 0 no data 0,6368

650 700,2 15,43 23,33 11,83 5,32 0,5817 79,73 2,33 0 no data 0,6357

660 711 15,47 23,27 11,71 5,42 0,5906 79,9 2,26 0 no data 0,6333

670 721,7 15,47 23,27 11,56 5,5 0,5996 80,04 2,2 0 no data 0,63

680 732,5 15,44 23,32 11,42 5,57 0,6085 80,16 2,14 0 no data 0,6264

690 743,3 15,41 23,36 11,28 5,64 0,6175 80,27 2,08 0 no data 0,623

700 754 15,38 23,41 11,15 5,71 0,6264 80,37 2,03 0 no data 0,6196

710 764,8 15,35 23,46 11,03 5,78 0,6354 80,48 1,98 0 no data 0,6164

720 775,6 15,23 23,64 10,94 5,82 0,6443 80,53 1,95 0 no data 0,6187

730 786,4 15,16 23,74 10,86 5,88 0,6533 80,62 1,92 0 no data 0,6216

740 797,1 15,13 23,79 10,78 5,94 0,6622 80,72 1,88 0 no data 0,6249

750 807,9 15,07 23,88 10,7 6 0,6712 80,8 1,85 0 no data 0,6279

760 818,7 14,98 24,02 10,63 6,04 0,6801 80,86 1,82 0 no data 0,6307

770 829,4 14,87 24,21 10,56 6,08 0,6891 80,9 1,79 0 no data 0,6332

780 840,2 14,73 24,44 10,5 6,1 0,698 80,93 1,77 0 no data 0,6356

790 851 14,87 24,21 10,42 6,23 0,707 81,12 1,72 0 no data 0,6405

800 861,8 14,99 24,02 10,35 6,36 0,7159 81,29 1,67 0 no data 0,6452

810 872,5 15,08 23,88 10,29 6,48 0,7249 81,45 1,63 0 no data 0,6495

820 883,3 15,13 23,79 10,23 6,58 0,7338 81,58 1,6 0 no data 0,6536

830 894,1 15,16 23,75 10,17 6,67 0,7428 81,69 1,56 0 no data 0,6575

840 904,9 15,23 23,64 10,12 6,78 0,7517 81,82 1,53 0 no data 0,6618

850 915,6 15,41 23,36 10,06 6,94 0,7607 82,01 1,49 0 no data 0,667

860 926,4 15,57 23,12 10,01 7,1 0,7696 82,18 1,45 0 no data 0,6719

870 937,2 15,6 23,08 9,88 7,19 0,7785 82,28 1,41 0 no data 0,6739

880 947,9 15,67 22,98 9,74 7,31 0,7875 82,39 1,37 0 no data 0,6756

890 958,7 15,78 22,82 9,63 7,44 0,7964 82,52 1,33 0 no data 0,6784

900 969,5 15,81 22,77 9,43 7,55 0,8054 82,62 1,28 0 no data 0,6783

910 980,3 15,68 22,96 9,17 7,57 0,8143 82,63 1,25 0 no data 0,6751

920 991 15,38 23,41 8,88 7,51 0,8233 82,56 1,22 0 no data 0,6647

930 1001,8 15,38 23,41 8,74 7,6 0,8322 82,63 1,18 0 no data 0,6595

940 1012,6 15,43 23,32 8,59 7,71 0,8412 82,73 1,14 0 no data 0,6542

950 1023,4 15,39 23,39 8,42 7,77 0,8501 82,79 1,11 0 no data 0,6477

960 1034,1 15,04 23,94 8,24 7,68 0,8591 82,7 1,11 0 no data 0,6387

970 1044,9 14,68 24,53 8,07 7,58 0,868 82,59 1,1 0 no data 0,6296

980 1055,7 14,34 25,11 7,92 7,48 0,877 82,49 1,09 0 no data 0,6213

990 1066,4 14,02 25,68 7,79 7,39 0,8859 82,35 1,08 0 no data 0,6137

1000 1077,2 13,69 26,29 7,66 7,3 0,8949 82,29 1,08 0 no data 0,5585

1010 1088 13,29 27,08 7,51 7,16 0,9038 82,13 1,07 0 no data 0,5492

1020 1098,7 12,92 27,86 7,34 7,04 0,9128 81,98 1,07 0 no data 0,5397

1030 1109,5 12,62 28,53 7,17 6,94 0,9217 81,87 1,06 0 no data 0,5305

1040 1120,3 12,32 29,22 6,97 6,85 0,9307 81,69 1,06 0 no data 0,5205

[/TABLE]

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=240894&stc=1&d=1593014959

f-14-turn_2.png.faa046339fbf678725024c940f1401c9.png

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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Maybe I should be a bit more clear on this: there is nothing wrong with the FM (= we believe there are no major deficiencies with the FM, we are not infallible ofc, there can always be minor issues).:)

 

Mike, no one call your's Tomcat FM wrong. And especially how it feels.

I personally find it most enjoyable 4th gen fighter for flight. Like on tips of fingers.

But obviously here is something can be better.

In my noob opinion Tomcat have too much lift or not enough drag until 1.15 mach.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but chart seems so.

71751688-a195e880-2e7c-11ea-9c3f-a1d93688ed16.jpg.e5b7abd49275eb84d52280131a7fc86d.jpg

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You're wrong. You need to check that the chart is at the same weight, drag index and altitude as whatever tests people are running in DCS.

 

 

From the looks of it, it seems like the chart implies that the most G the Tomcat can hold is 4. That is absolutely not true for a turn executed at low weight and sea level.

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