Cmptohocah Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) I have posted a similar question some years ago, but I don't think I have formulated it well that time, so: When should an RWR stop giving a launch warning, when there is an inbound SARH missile, and why? Edited June 16, 2020 by Cmptohocah Typo Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomTOTEN Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 An RWR fundamentally is a radio receiver (my latest speculation is that it's basically a complicated ADF/ARK). As far as I can tell, it receives signals, converts them to an audible frequency, and transmits it to the pilot. It also has some sort of filters or a signal database to compare, and those systems illuminate the different lights. I think a very basic answer to your question, is that it will stop providing the warning of a launch, when it stops receiving the radio signals which indicate a missile in flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Simply when enemy radar is no longer supporting the missile. Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmptohocah Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 ... I think a very basic answer to your question, is that it will stop providing the warning of a launch, when it stops receiving the radio signals which indicate a missile in flight. I am guessing this would then depend on the type of the signal being emitted by the launching platform. If this is true, I guess then it should be time based, since the platform that has launched has no idea if the missile is still tracking or not. Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmptohocah Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Simply when enemy radar is no longer supporting the missile. When you say "supporting", you mean sending guidance info? Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 When you say "supporting", you mean sending guidance info? Don’t know about D but, if I had made that statement, I would mean “until the radar dropped out of STT after the launch.” YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomTOTEN Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 If this is true, I guess then it should be time based, since the platform that has launched has no idea if the missile is still tracking or not. I think that's a fair guess, but related to the systems of the launching aircraft, and not so much the RWR itself. I bet it's related to the length of time the battery inside the missile is able to power the receiver antennae, guidance computer, and missile flight controls.:book: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Don’t know about D but, if I had made that statement, I would mean “until the radar dropped out of STT after the launch.” That's correct :thumbup: Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmptohocah Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 That's correct :thumbup: If I understood correctly, this means that - theoretically - RWR should keep "buzzing" as long as there some sort of STT detected after the launch. Wether that be the same platform continuing the lock after the launch or a wingman - in a pair flight - having the target in STT even though the launching platform eventually lost the lock. Am I understanding this right? Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 If I understood correctly, this means that - theoretically - RWR should keep "buzzing" as long as there some sort of STT detected after the launch. Wether that be the same platform continuing the lock after the launch or a wingman - in a pair flight - having the target in STT even though the launching platform eventually lost the lock. Am I understanding this right? Almost. It’s not the STT lock itself. It’s the lock after the launch. At launch, there’s a frequency shift and most likely other changes occurring. That’s what cues the launch detection on the RWR. If the wingman has you locked but hasn’t launched after lead’s STT has dropped, your RWR will drop into a lock tone. YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motomouse Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 When the missle is in the blind spots of the RWR no warning is given. VIC-20@1.108 MHz, onboard GPU, 5KB RAM, μυωπία goggles, Competition Pro HOTAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) If I understood correctly, this means that - theoretically - RWR should keep "buzzing" as long as there some sort of STT detected after the launch. Wether that be the same platform continuing the lock after the launch or a wingman - in a pair flight - having the target in STT even though the launching platform eventually lost the lock. Am I understanding this right? Theoretically, if the signals were the same, same strenght and direction, your RWR wouldn't discern one from the other. @Motomouse: FC3 has simplified RWR implementation. Some modules like F-14 have much more realistic RWR simulation with no such thing as blind spots. Edited June 17, 2020 by draconus Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) Theoretically, if the signals were the same, same strenght and direction, your RWR wouldn't discern one from the other... If the signals were the same. But they shouldn’t be. Each aircraft in the flight should be using slightly different frequencies to keep from interfering with one another for search and targeting. I would imagine that allows the RWR to differentiate among them. Edited June 17, 2020 by Ironhand YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I have posted a similar question some years ago, but I don't think I have formulated it well that time, so: When should an RWR stop giving a launch warning, when there is an inbound SARH missile, and why? Depends on the system that's attacking. In other words, DCS doesn't really simulate any of that. We have a simple warning mechanism, and frankly not sure we need the RL complications, especially since it means knowing exactly what all the systems detected by the RWR actually do. And we mostly don't know all that. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motomouse Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Thanks for RWR clarification, thought I am in the F-18 forum, sorry. VIC-20@1.108 MHz, onboard GPU, 5KB RAM, μυωπία goggles, Competition Pro HOTAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) Depends on the system that's attacking. In other words, DCS doesn't really simulate any of that. We have a simple warning mechanism, and frankly not sure we need the RL complications, especially since it means knowing exactly what all the systems detected by the RWR actually do. And we mostly don't know all that. I will take a screenshot of this post. You have been involved in several discussions telling the contrary against Russian hardware. As in the real life you can set same missile guidance freq to an onboard radar in a pair of MiG-29 or to a pair of Buk Systems. Also they can launch the missile to an intercept point and start the guidance a while after by the second unit with same Guidance freq, while the first launcher unit already change the position. Doing so you will never get a RWR launch on time to avoid been hit. This tiny but deadly upgrade can make a big difference in DCS battlefield. Still waiting for this real life upgrade that never been done in DCS and that is a 70s Soviet tactic been in all guided radars. Obviously this is a downgrade for Russian side in the Sim. Edited June 17, 2020 by pepin1234 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaeagle Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 I have posted a similar question some years ago, but I don't think I have formulated it well that time, so: When should an RWR stop giving a launch warning, when there is an inbound SARH missile, and why? When support from the launching aircraft is broken. Earlier radar/SARH systems(such as with early AIM-7 versions) employed a separate CW(Continuous Wave) transmitter to illuminate the target for the missile SARH seeker, so the launch warning would come when the RWR detected this waveform commencing - i.e. at the point of launching the missile. The system used by the MiG-29(and Su-27)/R-27R/ER employ PD(Pulse Doppler) target illumination, where the radar switches its transmission frequency between target tracking and target illumination/radio correction for the missile. So in this case it would be this(alternating frequency) that triggers the RWR launch warning - i.e. again when the missile is launched. The missile has a finite operation time(onboard power supply), so when this is exceeded, I guess the weapon's control system of the launching aircraft will stop supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaeagle Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 When the missle is in the blind spots of the RWR no warning is given. Doesn't matter in the case of SARH missiles, as these don't emit anything themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaeagle Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Don’t know about D but, if I had made that statement, I would mean “until the radar dropped out of STT after the launch.” That would be the case for a "lock warning" - not "launch warning" as the OP asked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) That would be the case for a "lock warning" - not "launch warning" as the OP asked about. You misunderstood. STT after launch changes signal (or adds another, like CW) which some RWR can discern. When this signal is no longer detected RWR stops the warning and that was the answer. Edited June 19, 2020 by draconus Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaeagle Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 You misunderstood. STT after launch changes signal (or adds another, like CW) which some RWR can discern. When this signal is no longer detected RWR stops the warning and that was the answer. No mate I didn't misunderstand :) . You are right about the above, but my response was in regards to what Ironhand said; “until the radar dropped out of STT after the launch.” - i.e. that you don't need to drop out of STT in order for missile support to end and thus RWR no longer giving a "launch warning". The "lock warning" on the other hand is associated with the radar tracking the target in STT mode regardless of whether a missile is launched or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 No mate I didn't misunderstand :) . You are right about the above, but my response was in regards to what Ironhand said; “until the radar dropped out of STT after the launch.” - i.e. that you don't need to drop out of STT in order for missile support to end and thus RWR no longer giving a "launch warning". I'd like to know about that time duration when launching platform stops supporting the missile if you mean that above. Is it preset for a particular missile and supporting radar? Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaeagle Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 I'd like to know about that time duration when launching platform stops supporting the missile if you mean that above. Is it preset for a particular missile and supporting radar? For the R-27R missile, the maximum time duration of inertial guidance/radio correction is 30 seconds, while IIRC the total time for powered flight is ~ 60 seconds. Whether the launching platform can determine a "lost missile" prior to that - i.e. target/missile parameters, range/time duration I don't know, but at least there would be little reason to provide missile support beyond its max operating time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmptohocah Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) I did some testing in DCS and the current behavior for SPO RWR (Russian version) is: LA warning starts after the missile has been fired and persists until the radar lock is broken. This kind of makes sense since I see no reason for the radar to get out of pulse mode - IMHO. I didn't check the behavior of the NATO RWRs yet. This is next on my list, but I guess the results should be the same. Edited June 20, 2020 by Cmptohocah Correction Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 LA warning starts after the missile has been fired and persists until the radar lock is broken. And if it keeps the lock does it stop after some time or when the missile is lost in DCS? Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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