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Old 01-12-2020, 12:10 AM   #121
Harlikwin
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Originally Posted by Snappy View Post
ED was aware of this for years..its not like these are sudden, newly discovered deficiencies. Still these issues languished.


Also very interested in the next newsletter. But then again announcing things has always been a strength of ED, I would appreciate instead tangible progress in A.I. amongst other core issues instead of nice-sounding newsletters


Sorry for sounding somewhat negative, but based on past experience I‘m not getting my hopes up.

Before anyone says the usual : „ some ppl will complain no matter what, unappreciative,negative nancy, bla bla...“
No, its just different ppl have different tastes/preferences and while its cool that we get a new map free of charge, I‘d rather have much improved A.I. and skip the map.




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Snappy
Let me start by saying I agree.

But you also have to realize the art guys arent writing code. Or at least you "really really" dont want them too. Otherwise the AI is gonna be like andy warhol on crack. I can post that gif for you but you probably can paint that picture in your head.

The better argument might be map vs improved visual AC models or ships etc.

Code wise similar issue, you probably dont want the FM guy doint AI or vice versa. But they are probably light on coders. Much like ol razbam.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:10 PM   #122
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well… i agree with the majority of posts here.
in fact i'm waaay more negative than most of people here, because to me its clear that the commercial logic has taken over ...so… working on already sold modules (read: F-18 ) will just not bring more money.
i'm still deeply disappointed but not surprised by years-old bugs not being addressed.
that said, i would happily pay another full price (50-60€) for a finished F18 module.
if the work is made and is quality work, i would pay >>>happily<<<, supporting ED again.
to my eyes that can be a satisfactory solution for everyone,ED get more cash (for a quality work, so its fine), customers finally get what they pay for, many years ago.
actual politic seem to just make a lot of unhappy people, and the "more modules" logic will just make all worse, there's no escape from Early Access.
so, again, i suggest ED to rethink theyr politic, i'm sure many Others will be happy to pay for a good quality work to complete a module, instead to dump cash into incomplete modules that will struggle for years, or worse do like me and never buy a DCS product of any kind until my favourite module will be 100% complete and bug-free.
hope they will think on that, even if probably they will not even read this.

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Old 01-14-2020, 12:08 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by DLEGION View Post
well… i agree with the majority of posts here.
in fact i'm waaay more negative than most of people here, because to me its clear that the commercial logic has taken over ...so… working on already sold modules (read: F-18 ) will just not bring more money.
i'm still deeply disappointed but not surprised by years-old bugs not being addressed.
that said, i would happily pay another full price (50-60€) for a finished F18 module.
if the work is made and is quality work, i would pay >>>happily<<<, supporting ED again.
to my eyes that can be a satisfactory solution for everyone,ED get more cash (for a quality work, so its fine), customers finally get what they pay for, many years ago.
actual politic seem to just make a lot of unhappy people, and the "more modules" logic will just make all worse, there's no escape from Early Access.
so, again, i suggest ED to rethink theyr politic, i'm sure many Others will be happy to pay for a good quality work to complete a module, instead to dump cash into incomplete modules that will struggle for years, or worse do like me and never buy a DCS product of any kind until my favourite module will be 100% complete and bug-free.
hope they will think on that, even if probably they will not even read this.
We try and read as much as possible, but we already stated our goal was to have the Hornet completed by the end of the year. 2.5 years is a reasonable time for the development of such a complex module, but if you don't/didnt enjoy the ride, by all means, please consider this if you take part in another Early Access, as has been said, its not for everyone.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:15 PM   #124
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sorry to contradict you but two years is way more than the normal pre release time.
A normal pre release is more six months mostly three.
But we the customers have the power, the power of credit card!
I won't buy any more modules that are not fully finished, i will buy the supercarrier module because i'm weak!
Just take example of 3rd parties who deliver more finished products than you seem capable.
Why ED don't make DCS pay and focus on the DCS Core, and make it the huge wonderfull sim it's meant to be, and let 3rd parties do the modules.
Make pay updates of DCS adding to it new functionalities and improvements.
Maybe in last resort i may accept to pay some fees anually to help ED, but only if they keep the good work.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:31 PM   #125
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sorry to contradict you but two years is way more than the normal pre release time.
Well, the Hornet is a way more complex module than normal, so 2.5 years seems absolutely fine to me.

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But we the customers have the power, the power of credit card!
I won't buy any more modules that are not fully finished, i will buy the supercarrier module because i'm weak!
I'll happily buy another ED module as the Early Access process for the Hornet and Viper is moving along very well, unlike with many of the 3rd party modules.

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Just take example of 3rd parties who deliver more finished products than you seem capable.
Which 3rd party dev has delivered more finished products than ED?
Out of my head I can't even think of many finished 3rd party module at all. There's the MiG-21 which is officially finished and the Mirage 2000C, although the Mirage is in a worse state than ever currently. All other 3rd party modules are still in Early Access as far as I can see...
But it doesn't matter anyways who does more modules. I rather have quality than quantity and EDs modules are of much higher quality than most 3rd party modules.

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Make pay updates of DCS adding to it new functionalities and improvements.
And what about the people that are not willing/able to constantly pay for updates? They would stick with the outdated versions of DCS which is a horror for multiplayer and the community... No thanks! DCS is working fine as it is.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:30 PM   #126
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The F-14 Got some bugs but has almost all functionalities, same for JF-17.
Everyone is free to do what he wants with his money... I choose not to pay for unfinished modules, it's my choice, you don't have to agree with it.
What do you think about Paying three times for the same KA-50 with just new 3D and two or three missiles or systems... (looks like a paying update to me...)

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Old 01-14-2020, 02:00 PM   #127
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The F-14 Got some bugs but has almost all functionalities, same for JF-17.
The F-14 is far from being complete. It's still missing its engine instruments, TWS AUTO mode, proper Phoenix guidance logic, Jester LANTIRN ability, Multicrew refactoring, campaign and the entire F-14A.
I don't know about the JF-17 though.


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Everyone is free to do what he wants with his money... I choose not to pay for unfinished modules, it's my choice, you don't have to agree with it.
I actually do agree with it. I even think it's a great idea as Early Access is obviously not suited for you. I just disagree with your proposals on how DCS development should change.

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What do you think about Paying three times for the same KA-50 with just new 3D and two or three missiles or systems... (looks like a paying update to me...)
The new 3D model will be free. It's the new missiles and systems that will have to be purchased. I would actually prefer to pay for the 3D upgrade and not get the new missiles and systems at all as they are not realistic, but that#s another story.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:50 PM   #128
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The F-14 is far from being complete. It's still missing its engine instruments, TWS AUTO mode, proper Phoenix guidance logic, Jester LANTIRN ability, Multicrew refactoring, campaign and the entire F-14A.
I don't know about the JF-17 though.



I actually do agree with it. I even think it's a great idea as Early Access is obviously not suited for you. I just disagree with your proposals on how DCS development should change.


The new 3D model will be free. It's the new missiles and systems that will have to be purchased. I would actually prefer to pay for the 3D upgrade and not get the new missiles and systems at all as they are not realistic, but that#s another story.
I think for alot of folks coming from the "normal" "game" world, 2.5 years is an absurd time for EA, with a few months being common, and a year being considered "long". That being said DCS is DCS. I think one of the things they "could" do is be far more up-front on their webpage about estimated completion year. Then again this would likely drive off new players but its all about expectations management.

As for near complete modules on release. I'd say that both the F14 and the JF17 came out much more "done" than the F18 and Viper. The F14 was more or less A/A capable from day 1, and mostly A/G capable. To be fair it was released as EA with all of that stated up-front. It had a bad month or two serious bug killing required on release, but its been updated regularly and features worked on.

The JF17 is basically "done" at a basic level, with some bug squashing to do, and some more features to be fleshed out like the D/L and then some additional bloc2 components which the Devs decided to add. Currently its probably the most capable A/G platform in game, and decent for A/A. And honestly given that this is the Dev's first module I'm super impressed with them.

I will say that compared to most 3rd parties though ED does a good job of making progress on modules, the recent hornet/viper "fiasco" being the exception, not the rule. So in general I have no issue buying their EA stuff, knowing it will get updated/fixed regularly, even if progress on what I find important not to always aligned with ED's "vision".

Otherwise I'd say many 3rd Devs are much much slower to show progress and their modules much more incomplete on EA release. And I'm very wary of buying EA modules from them depending on who we are talking about since what you get on day 1 is likely to be mostly you will have on month 6 and 12...
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:14 PM   #129
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Yeah going to say that 2 years is an acceptable time for an item to be in EA. 2.5 would be a bit long, over that would be “what's the holdup?”
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:48 PM   #130
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just my 2 cent....
early access = it isnt finished, by far!
early access = if you like finished -> hands off!!
early access = be a part of something to take it step by step
early access = you have to "love" bugs and report them to the developer
early access = push money to a project, that you believe in!
early access = like Yoda said: ...patience you have to have...
....and so on


...if im thinking back, simulations was never ready at release...microprose, falcon, silent hunter, il2 ......star citizen -> Robert laughs about 2,5 years of development


....for me its a honour to take part at the early access of a modul - and thanks a lot to Matt and his team, that they are going this way! So please be a little more gentle and respectful! If you dont like it, hey! you dont have to buy it as early access! There is no need to do that! But if you buy it please see it for what it is - not more not less.....
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