Whats the best corner speed for the hornet?

I know every a/c has a best 'corner speed' (I'm sure thats what they call it) ie. the best IAS and g to give you maximum turn without losing speed (which you would if you just hauled the stick back).

I'm quite sure its in the early 400kt range (420kts?) but not sure on g...maybe 1.5g? 2g?

Every a/c has a best corner speed which i think becomes quite important in ACM (no point doing a max turn at 4g's then coming out of your turn at 180kts when your target is doing 480kts).

Depends if you are in a single circle radius fight or a 2 circle rate fight.

Rate fight you want corner speed. Radius fight you want min radius which will be near your 180.

For corner speed I would check Natops but 400 sounds about right remember tho that sustained vs snap very much depends on the fight and what you need to do. You can sustain higher rate descending to the ground which is why most rate fights end up at the deck.

Hope that helps a bit.

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yeah just single circle. I've been making the mistake in ACM of pulling too many g's on corners and ending up with a speed deficit then getting owned. Its more about what do I do after a head on pass doesn't result in a kill, if I turn - whats the best speed/g to turn back towards the bandit whilst still coming out at around 400kts.

Corner speed is by definition the minimum speed at which it is possible to reach the load limit for the aircraft (varies by situation).

Maximum angular performance turn is full deflection at corner followed by reduced deflection so as not to slow below maximum sustained turn rate.

ah ok maybe I've used the wrong terminology (thats why i thought I would explain what I'm after). so much to learn!!

If you meet head on in a min separate pass and both turn the same way as in both turn right you are in a rate fight. If one of you reverses the natural turn towards the other then you are in a radius fight then you need to slow down and pull max g possible in the old days we would use flap but that's automatic in the F18.

Sorry can't access my brief on the phone.

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sustained 360Kcas

sustained 360Kcas

Are there any turn performance charts for the F/A-18 around?

Trying to compare it to the f-16, like this chart at 15,000

Close to the same speed as the f-16 it seems, can she hold the same rate?

yeah just single circle. I've been making the mistake in ACM of pulling too many g's on corners and ending up with a speed deficit then getting owned. Its more about what do I do after a head on pass doesn't result in a kill, if I turn - whats the best speed/g to turn back towards the bandit whilst still coming out at around 400kts.

For 2C keep it between 350 and 450, for 1C pull until below 200 kn and then keep it between 20-22 alpha. That worked for me. An EM- diagram would be nice and there is always Tacview to generate our own numbers.

My advice: keep the tally and listen to the alpha. If you keep the tally and have the speed in the right ballpark, the fight is half won.

Are there any turn performance charts for the F/A-18 around?

 

Trying to compare it to the f-16, like this chart at 15,000

 

Close to the same speed as the f-16 it seems, can she hold the same rate?

Not in the public forum

Are there any turn performance charts for the F/A-18 around?

 

Trying to compare it to the f-16, like this chart at 15,000

 

Close to the same speed as the f-16 it seems, can she hold the same rate?

The Hornet's sustained turn rate is anywhere from 2 to 4 degrees less than that f-16's, depending on weight and load out.

In EM diagrams the sustained turn rate line is know as the Ps zero line. Ps 0 indicates where in the flight envelope the craft can maneuver without losing energy. Ps is calculated as Ps = V(T/W-D/W). When Ps is positive the craft can accelerate, climb and or increase G without losing airpseed.

Looking at the charts. At mach .85 the hornet pulls 10.2 degrees per second which equates to about 5 G. The F-16 at mach .85 pulls 14. degrees per second which equates to about 7.2 G. Clearly the Viper has a turning rate advantage. Though much of that advantage is due to the weight and increased drag of this load. It's three bags, Sparrows and Sidewinders. Which increases the drag and weight of the Hornet. So it's not really an apples to apples comparison.

A more comparable comparison to the F-16 block 15 is the Hornet in the light configuration. In this config, the Hornet pulls 12.5 degrees per second, according to the Elements of Power sources. Based on the airframe and the other chart, We can assume this will be around mach .85. Thus we're making this turn at about 6 G. The amount of G is important because turn rate =G / V.

Going back to our discussion on Ps, recall Ps = V(T/W-D/W). The reason why the Hornet doesn't have the same sustain turn rate as the F-16 despite having more thrust is because it's heavier and generates more drag.

Things even out with later blocks of the F-16 as it got heavier and more dragy. Take this Em chart for what it's worth, there isn't much background info accompanying it.

As for Hornet charts this one isn't bad. It's the same loadout as the 10.2 degree Hornet in the elements of power blog chart.

In regards to sources. Like your F-16 EM chart, many of the aircraft EM charts on the web come from "Weapon Symposium "Fighter Performance" Handbook, Circa 1986 by Pawloski. This was handout give to participants of a General Dynamics conference. All these charts have similar visual styles, like this mirage one. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eiImrT1REak/UW4c4oeGpvI/AAAAAAAACRg/zfu0jsNC-3A/s1600/Mirage+2000+at+15k.jpg

The Elements of power blog also uses this reference to create the charts above. So we get a pretty comparable comparison.

Curly to the rescue once again:thumbup:

Thank you very much for the detailed post, very interesting.

Going to be close then, in the right config, with ED modelling the F-16C.

Yep, Curly comes through again:D

Good to know all this before the chivalrous gunzo matches... no BVR, no Shlem shots (or JHMCS + Aim9X)… just yank and bank:joystick: or bank and yank, ;/

OMG thanks guys...this is good stuff!!

Get in the A1-F18AC-NFM-200

An F18A with 50% internal fuel 2x Aim9 guns, full AB at 15,000 ft sustained rate is a whole lot better than any of the charts above, trust me :)

Yup, charts look off for the majority of the aicraft listed unless trying to fight at 40K ft.

For those of you that really want to know this stuff cold, read Robert Shaw's Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering and also watch

It doesn't matter if you're 1C or 2C. Corner Velocity is the speed at which you achieve the maximum rate and minimum radius turn. The Em chart will show you whether or not you are positive neutral or negative Ps for various Altitudes, airspeeds and g-loads. Corner velocity doesn't change. Your application of Em is what changes.

In contemporary BFM,

1C fight is essentially used to out rate and get nose position for a guns kill. Or take preemptive action against a bandits AAM shot by staying inside his Rmin.

2C fight (in a 1v1) is about displacement and staying outside of your Rmin for an AAM shot opportunity.

Corner velocity doesn't change.

It most certainly does. What ever gave you the idea it was constant?!

Im just saying in context of an AA engagement, I just meant that if you enter the fight in a given config (this case AA), corner doesn't change in reference to 1C or 2C. Corner is what it is: The max rate & min radius turn. So while it does change depending on weight and altitude, generally we're not talking about corner as something less than best performance. So if your configuration is such that you're unable to achieve it, than whatever your "best" is at that config is not.generally going to be referred to as the corner speed for an AA engagement, even though it would be your best for that given instance.

Ah I see what you're getting at.

It does change with altitude though, so keep that in mind as that can obviously change quite quickly.

I think in practicality an airspeed range can act as buffer. IRL as g-forces build on the pilot higher cognitive abilities degrade. I think that's probably why we tend to shoot for a muscle.memory figure. So.that you train it into your brain, so.that under pressure you instinctivy know what you need to do. For examole In IFF (T-38C) it says that corner is between 400 and 420 kts with the aim for 410 kts. So as a rule of thumb flying 410 kts will give you best rate and radius at basically any altitude. What will differ is your Ps. Which at higher MSLs will be much greater negative value where performance is degraded vs close to SL. Meaning you'll need to place your LV below the horizon to maintain airspeed in the turn.

It doesn't matter if you're 1C or 2C. Corner Velocity is the speed at which you achieve the maximum rate and minimum radius turn. The Em chart will show you whether or not you are positive neutral or negative Ps for various Altitudes, airspeeds and g-loads. Corner velocity doesn't change. Your application of Em is what changes.

 

In contemporary BFM,

 

1C fight is essentially used to out rate and get nose position for a guns kill. Or take preemptive action against a bandits AAM shot by staying inside his Rmin.

 

2C fight (in a 1v1) is about displacement and staying outside of your Rmin for an AAM shot opportunity.

Sorry, but thats not correct.

Corner speed/velocity will give you the maximum instantaneous rate, but not a min radius turn.You may want to rethink this or dig deeper into aircraft turn radius formula.

Also not sure why you imply that 1c is essentially used for outrating while most serious literature on the topic agrees that 1c is about minimizing radius while 2c is about max - rating.

That is not to say that rate is completely unimportant in 1c (after all the saying is -rate kills-), but it will only get you so far and there is a reason why itˋs a radius fight in 1c.

Kind regards,

Snappy.

That's precisely what you are doing with corner. Getting the smallest radius as fast as you can.

You're right though, I mixed up the term for 1C. (Sometimes my brain gets moving faster.than my logic logic processor! Lol). Although flying the min radius is nice (need to understand that once our fuselages are aligned to stay in CZ if bandit is slowing) ultimately we want our nose on the bandit. In the T-38 for example, the max min radius and min corner speed ranges are separated by almost 100 kts difference. That then gets into what to.do next....if in min radius fight need to assess if your winning or losing. If you're too fast for min radius try to force a 2 circle. Excluding BVR weapons or HOBS, in general, eventually you need to move your nose out of lag and take the shot.