Valve Index Hands On

Very interesting to see you are using 8x AA, FXAA on and VR pre-rendered frames = 3 in the nVidia settings. I’ve had those all turned off (or application controlled). If you have a minute let me know what you are using in DCS for MSAA (I’ve needed a min of 2x to combat shimmering in the sim) and Aniostropic Filtering (I’ve tried 0x, 8x, 16x and not even really sure what impact it has pro or con). I know MSAA has a pretty big impact on perf...

 

Regardless thanks - it’s helpful to see others nVidia settings as those are rare and difficult to share!

I use 2x MSAA and 16x AA.

Yeah, sorry Twwhitey, I can't think of anything to suggest for that issue. The only time I had that I didn't know why, either, and after a clean reinstall it disappeared.

My relatively low settings are in post 565 if you'd like to try them. I'm using 90Hz with 120% resolution in SteamVR now.

The only issue that remains for me in DCS World is that I get an intermittent loading screen when loading up missions - and that doesn't matter to me at all, really.

Good stuff Alec

 

Intel Turbo Boost: so I came across talk of that shortly after I built the system poked around bios a bit (apparently the only place to disable is in BIOS?) and wasn’t 100% sure I found it in BIOS. I think it’s still active so I’ll revisit.

That setting is in your Bios but I wouldn't turn it off if I were you. That enables the Turbo setting on your chip which you would want to enable so you can hit the top Turbo speed of the 9900k (5Ghz).

The CPU setting in bios is in the Advanced menu under CPU Configuration. It's directly below the entry for Intel Speed Step and is called Turbo Mode. Again you really should leave that on though to get the max performance of your CPU unless you are manually overclocking it, but if you are doing that you should have it higher than 4.7 since the chip stock hits 5.0Ghz when in Turbo mode under load.

@Twwhitey

I have an i9-7980XE, the TBMT tool was part of my mainboard drivers. It stated that it has to be installed in any case. It should definitely be activated in your BIOS, however i never found the driver doing anything useful, so in windows i set the tool to be disabled. But i read somewhere that it is kind of essential to have it installed.

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/intel-turbo-boost-technology-max

It seems to be some kind of affinity management tool, but never worked well for DCS or any other application.

I have both index and rift s... So far the rift s has been WAY easier to set up and have great frame rates with. Not a huge difference in pic quality.....but im still tweaking on it

Not sure I agree about pic quality, I definitely could see the SDE with the Rift S alot more than in the Index, the Index's SDE is negligible in my opinion in DCS.

That setting is in your Bios but I wouldn't turn it off if I were you. That enables the Turbo setting on your chip which you would want to enable so you can hit the top Turbo speed of the 9900k (5Ghz).

 

The CPU setting in bios is in the Advanced menu under CPU Configuration. It's directly below the entry for Intel Speed Step and is called Turbo Mode. Again you really should leave that on though to get the max performance of your CPU unless you are manually overclocking it, but if you are doing that you should have it higher than 4.7 since the chip stock hits 5.0Ghz when in Turbo mode under load.

@Twwhitey

 

I have an i9-7980XE, the TBMT tool was part of my mainboard drivers. It stated that it has to be installed in any case. It should definitely be activated in your BIOS, however i never found the driver doing anything useful, so in windows i set the tool to be disabled. But i read somewhere that it is kind of essential to have it installed.

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/intel-turbo-boost-technology-max

It seems to be some kind of affinity management tool, but never worked well for DCS or any other application.

Got it thanks guys... so I was able to find the option in BIOS exactly as you stated @Mattmad_BFC... Turbo Mode under Intel Speed Step is indeed enabled (good job AMT hiding that option deep in BIOS).

Where I get confused and contrary to your setup apparently Alec is I can find no evidence of the Intel TBTM in Windows 10 at all. No "control panel" I've found images of online (see attached I pulled from Google), services (running or not), tasks, processes, applications or even folders under Program Files/Intel. Is there an install package that would've been downloaded and installed in Windows I should be aware of? Is there a .exe or path I can check? It's enabled in BIOS but I have no blessed idea whether it exists in my Windows setup...

This is the rabbit hole I went down a few months ago when I read countless times it's helpful to "disable TBTM"... it's amazing I've googled every permutation of TBTM and Windows 10, ASUS, American Megatrends, BIOS, etc. and this thing is confounding... and worst part may not be an issue at all.

Anyhow this is indeed helpful in hopefully checking this potential issue off the list.

In the meantime I have filed a support ticket w/ Valve regarding the dead pixels on my Index and the excessively loud Base Station... should be interesting!

My 3D print lens inserts and lens from Zenni came in (posted here a while back), fitment is perfect and the whole thing costed like $50 which is quite cheap.

The image is crystal clear, but now SDE is noticeable same as wearing contact lens. When I wear my glasses inside the headsest, SDE is not present due to alignment being slightly off (slightly blurred images as well).

The setup is now very comfortable and I can bring in the screen very close to my face almost as close as I could wearing contact lens.

That setting is in your Bios but I wouldn't turn it off if I were you. That enables the Turbo setting on your chip which you would want to enable so you can hit the top Turbo speed of the 9900k (5Ghz).

 

The CPU setting in bios is in the Advanced menu under CPU Configuration. It's directly below the entry for Intel Speed Step and is called Turbo Mode. Again you really should leave that on though to get the max performance of your CPU unless you are manually overclocking it, but if you are doing that you should have it higher than 4.7 since the chip stock hits 5.0Ghz when in Turbo mode under load.

Agree, that's bad advice.

Its ok to turn off but not in isolation. Telling someone to turn it off with no further instruction is borderline negligent. Fortunately it won't hurt anything, but it will decrease single core performance, which will hurt DCS significantly.

I have mine off (enhanced multicore, speed step, several C/P-states among others off as well), but I run 5.1 all cores and thus don't use turboboost. Threads still migrate cores for thermal reasons, but not to allow a temporary multiplier boost like they do with turboboost. It took a lot of tinkering and knowledge, lots of blue screens, and enough radiators to dissipate almost 600 watts to do though. I would not encourage anyone to mess with those setting without a solid understanding of their board's bios, and definitely don't disable turbo boost unless you can maintain a high multiplier.

Learn before you mess with those settings. If you don't know exactly what a setting does and how it interacts with other settings, don't change it. Those settings are all useful, as modern boards provide amazing flexibility, but you need to educate yourself first. Different boards tend to have different preferred forums, but most of the high end enthusiast boards have a home. If you've got an aorus master overclock.net has a great thread, otherwise find the one for your board. I don't discourage overclocking by any means, the 9900k is begging for it, but each chip is different, so often times you can't just copy someone's settings. Also, make sure you can cool it and know what you're doing. Don't expect to cool a 9900k drawing 300w with a corsair AIO.

Agree, that's bad advice.

 

Its ok to turn off but not in isolation. Telling someone to turn it off with no further instruction is borderline negligent. Fortunately it won't hurt anything, but it will decrease single core performance, which will hurt DCS significantly.

 

I have mine off (enhanced multicore, speed step, several C/P-states among others off as well), but I run 5.1 all cores and thus don't use turboboost. Threads still migrate cores for thermal reasons, but not to allow a temporary multiplier boost like they do with turboboost. It took a lot of tinkering and knowledge, lots of blue screens, and enough radiators to dissipate almost 600 watts to do though. I would not encourage anyone to mess with those setting without a solid understanding of their board's bios, and definitely don't disable turbo boost unless you can maintain a high multiplier.

 

Learn before you mess with those settings. If you don't know exactly what a setting does and how it interacts with other settings, don't change it. Those settings are all useful, as modern boards provide amazing flexibility, but you need to educate yourself first. Different boards tend to have different preferred forums, but most of the high end enthusiast boards have a home. If you've got an aorus master overclock.net has a great thread, otherwise find the one for your board. I don't discourage overclocking by any means, the 9900k is begging for it, but each chip is different, so often times you can't just copy someone's settings. Also, make sure you can cool it and know what you're doing. Don't expect to cool a 9900k drawing 300w with a corsair AIO.

Yep well said, this largely why I abandoned the journey down the rabbit hole related to TBTM in the first place...Especially considering I’m skeptical it’s the cause of my DCS issues at this point. There a people running very standard setups with equal or lesser hardware not experiencing my issue so I’m happy spending my time elsewhere

I've ordered the WidmoVR prescription lenses for my Index - don't expect them for a while, since they are snowed under with orders - but I was using the VR Lens Labs ones up to now, which are mounted on a frame like normal spec's, but with an elastic headband (HERE. Please note these are not specifically made for Index - they were originally made for Rift)

The problem I'm having with those and Index is that I always feel they are being pushed into my face, and specifically, the bridge of my nose, regardless of where I have the eye relief set.

It started getting painful after some longer sessions, so I decided to try the original VR Lens Lab lenses for the Rift CV1 - you know, the ones everyone was moaning didn't stay in place properly - and guess what? Perfect fit for the Index!

I'm going to do a quick video later - but these things fit straight in, the way they should have done in CV1, but never did cos they always fell out or out of place. Now, they are slightly smaller than the Index lenses, but when you look through them it makes zero difference. Also, when they are in place, they are not even close to the lenses, so no worries about scratching.

I'll still have those Widmo ones, but I'm set for the meantime :)

Here ya go...

Okay - I did the test of setting up the Index in a different PC in a different room, but the vertical lines issuie was still very noticable.

Meantime, Valve have offered an advance replacement, so I'm going ahead with that - but if the new one is the same, I'll probably hang on to the current one.

I don’t have the vertical artifacts that you have. There is no reason not to get a new one if you think the current one you have is flawed.

Okay - I did the test of setting up the Index in a different PC in a different room, but the vertical lines issuie was still very noticable.

 

Meantime, Valve have offered an advance replacement, so I'm going ahead with that - but if the new one is the same, I'll probably hang on to the current one.

Very cool that they are sending an advanced replacement. I would add that based on my copious amount of tweaking & testing (more on that in a final post shortly) you definitely have a bum unit... I haven't noticed anything of which you describe.

I'm curious how long did it take for them to respond to your support request? It seems like it's only been a few days right?

I submitted my support ticket for the excessively loud Base Station and, more importantly, the headset/eyepiece with the dead pixels early Monday AM. I have to admit getting an advanced replacement would go a long way towards me considering and likely keeping the whole package...

So just to supply a bit of closure for those following along (and those in future who might be in the same situation) I think I've settled on the necessary settings & configuration to get my Index functioning adequately in DCS.

In short, I've been through every permutation of nVidia Control Panel, DCS and SteamVR settings possible... up-to-and-including dropping DCS down to the default "Low" system settings and one-by-one increasing settings to see what impacts what. What I've learned is that MSAA is really the bane of my existence.

In order to get to what I consider decent/above average visual quality in DCS I basically have to forego MSAA in DCS. Based on the settings below (basically 80mhz, 120% SS, no motion smoothing in SteamVR, DCS PD of 1.0, no shadows, no MSAA, no AF and use nVidia AA instead) I can easily maintain 80fps over what I consider a pretty busy scene on the Caucasus map (PG and NTTR deserts are definitely not a problem).

Pretty happy with the visual experience (and no warping of anything due to wonky motion smoothing) EXCEPT man... the shimmering... my god the shimmering. Runway taxi lines, power lines/poles, bridges, smokestacks and rooftops in the distance all shimmering. MSAA 2x mitigates it (doesn't completely eliminate tho) but the instant it's enabled at even the lowest levels of details I get a ghosting, blurry, stuttering mess.

Assuming I can get my dead pixels (and fingers crossed my ever whizzing base station behind me) replaced I do believe I'll keep the index. I've been swapping back and forth the past 4 days between the Index and Rift S and while I do love the Rift S (it's value really is to be appreciated) the comfort, FOV, color improvement, adjustability and room for growth make it worth keeping (barely but yes). HOPEFULLY ED can bring some optimizations and improvements to the gfx engine to the table to alleviate the shimmering...

In the meantime if anyone has any recommendations, outside of turning on MSAA, to combat shimmering I'm all ears.. and thanks to all who have chimed in with recommendations already it's been really helpful.

Man , i feel for ya . I hate the shimmering as well . Enough to run 2xMSAA and performance be damned . I'd run 4x MSAA if i could . But i gotta tell ya , i 'm running significantly higher DCS graphics settings on my much-less-substantial system , which leads me to believe you are nowhere near having an optimised system yet . Unfortunately , i cannot be of much help as i have neither the Index , nor Steam , but a couple of thoughts occur .

Firstly , in my experience , the NCP settings have little-to-no effect on DCS . Recommend resetting to default except for power-prefer max performance .

Secondly , a few posts back you referred to your GPU frametimes being orange/red . That should never happen with a 2080ti , which no consumer CPU can as yet adequately drive in DCS . Perhaps it would be worthwhile to double-check your power cabling to the GPU ?

Man , i feel for ya . I hate the shimmering as well . Enough to run 2xMSAA and performance be damned . I'd run 4x MSAA if i could . But i gotta tell ya , i 'm running significantly higher DCS graphics settings on my much-less-substantial system , which leads me to believe you are nowhere near having an optimised system yet . Unfortunately , i cannot be of much help as i have neither the Index , nor Steam , but a couple of thoughts occur .

 

Firstly , in my experience , the NCP settings have little-to-no effect on DCS . Recommend resetting to default except for power-prefer max performance .

Secondly , a few posts back you referred to your GPU frametimes being orange/red . That should never happen with a 2080ti , which no consumer CPU can as yet adequately drive in DCS . Perhaps it would be worthwhile to double-check your power cabling to the GPU ?

I have to admit you appear right about the NCP settings... I just Restored to default (then just change the Power to Prefer Max) and I don't really see any difference so I suppose I'll sit tight on those.

Just did my usual test flight (F/A-18 Instant Action free flight Caucasus) and frametimes w/o MSAA (and the rest of noted settings) are sub-11ms aggressively maneuvering 200ft over the town, rock solid 80fps with a fair amount of town clutter there - it's great. Once I turn MSAA to 2x the frame rate fluctuates anywhere from 40 to 80 (depending on my sight line) and the frame times fluctuate from 11's to just under 14's. It's the moment the frametimes broach 13ms that the ghosting starts (oddly the framerate is still above 40 though... weird) - whatever that mid-line is in the fpsVR overlay chart when the frametimes go above it (orange zone) things blur.

I'm not sure what drives GPU frame times (might focus on CPU affinity i suppose).

Anyhow, I know I'm trying to push for decent cockpit clarity using the Index AND choosing a test map/town that has a fair amount of clutter to push it... I'm going to fly around the desert for a bit and actually blow some stuff up LOL

Twwhitey, Just a shot in the dark, what power supply are you running all this with?

750 Watt... I believe it's this make/model https://www.gamdias.com/component/index.php/psu-power/astrape-p1-750g

Possible it's not enough considering VR, thrustmasters, 2080ti, etc?

 

Just did my usual test flight (F/A-18 Instant Action free flight Caucasus) and frametimes w/o MSAA (and the rest of noted settings) are sub-11ms aggressively maneuvering 200ft over the town, rock solid 80fps with a fair amount of town clutter there - it's great. Once I turn MSAA to 2x the frame rate fluctuates anywhere from 40 to 80 (depending on my sight line) and the frame times fluctuate from 11's to just under 14's. It's the moment the frametimes broach 13ms that the ghosting starts (oddly the framerate is still above 40 though... weird)

That sounds like the Steam Motion Reprojection (or whatever it's called) kicking in when you break 80 frames (12.5 ms) is causing the ghosting . I don't know about Steam settings , but Oculus has several options including locking at 45 frames (1/2 the refresh rate) with and without ASW on , and letting the frames "float" with or without ASW . If steam allows , you might try this . You should be able to lock at least 45 at 90 index refresh with MSAA x2 . Perhaps even 60 at 120 .

I run my tests in precisely the same manner , with the same aircraft , and lock 45 for a butter-smooth experience with MSSAx2 .

That sounds like the Steam Motion Reprojection (or whatever it's called) kicking in when you break 80 frames (12.5 ms) is causing the ghosting . I don't know about Steam settings , but Oculus has several options including locking at 45 frames (1/2 the refresh rate) with and without ASW on , and letting the frames "float" with or without ASW . If steam allows , you might try this . You should be able to lock at least 45 at 90 index refresh with MSAA x2 . Perhaps even 60 at 120 .

I run my tests in precisely the same manner , with the same aircraft , and lock 45 for a butter-smooth experience with MSSAx2 .

Right on thanks for the insight, that's interesting... yeah the Steam Motion Reprojection is a bit of a voodoo thing, my research has yielded I can seemingly do nothing about it (no option to disable, configure or otherwise tweak). As I understand my only option is really enabling "Motion Smoothing" or not which in effect does what you are referring to I think (lock framerates at 1/2 the refresh rate and do some frame smoothing thing like ASW)

I've actually been swapping between c: drive images (one with a relatively clean rift s config and one with the new Index). I just switched back to the Rift S setup to run a quick mission for fun. I run the Rift S with ASW on/40frames and in retrospect I may have been overly harsh on the Steam Motion Smoothing implementation, it certainly does introduce some real wonkiness during aggressive maneuvering (warping effect on the cockpit frames and stores, etc.)... I never noticed it on the Rift S/ASW but it's there as well just not quite as pronounced. I'll have to poke around...I'm not aware how to get Oculus to lock the frame rate but NOT enable ASW (I use the Oculus Tray Tool and it's not readily apparent how to do that?). If SteamVR has such an option I'd love to find it too.

I tried running a mission with the Index/Motion Smoothing off/No MSAA on the PG map and the jaggies/shimmering was a real dealbreaker... the airport I spawned at was an eyesore... it was too much so I need to find a way to enable MSAA... I'm going to a play a bit with SteamVR's Motion Smoothing and see if I can live with it.

anyhow thanks again...

Here are my settings.

---

DCS is basically a grandpa in hippster clothing, an outdated software core, build for a CPU and GPU generation from ages ago, never meant to render a full high resolution frame twice or run several threads optimized for balanced workload on a multi-core CPU. Today it is pimped with up-to-date GPU features like PBR shaders, HDRi lighting (GI) and VR on top, which are very welcome - but require us to throw expensive hardware at the performance problems. But well, the game is one of it's kind, i'm totally crazy for it :)

My hardware:

i9-7980XE (OC to 4.4 GHz, 6 cores affinity setting for dcs.exe)

Asus 2080ti (OC)

ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme

32 GB RAM @ 3600MHz

Valve Index

See the attached screenshots for all my settings.

I'm curious how long did it take for them to respond to your support request? It seems like it's only been a few days right?

 

I submitted my support ticket for the excessively loud Base Station and, more importantly, the headset/eyepiece with the dead pixels early Monday AM. I have to admit getting an advanced replacement would go a long way towards me considering and likely keeping the whole package...

Yes - it was less than 2 working days (reported Saturday, response Tuesday). I think you are most likely to get an advance replacement if they are sure there's a fault.

This also means, of course, that the replacement should arrive in advance of you returning the defective unit. They told me I should return my headset within 2 weeks, but I can wait longer if my new unit doesn't arrive within that timescale.

Most accommodating. I've certainly no complaints about support - I provided a list of things I had tried and they told me that it had encompassed everything they would have asked me to do - so straight on with a replacement.

It was the same with Oculus after the Rift CV1 release. There were so many complaints about poor service, but I was very satisfied with my own experience (I got a replacement unit for that, too).

That sounds like the Steam Motion Reprojection (or whatever it's called) kicking in when you break 80 frames (12.5 ms) is causing the ghosting . I don't know about Steam settings , but Oculus has several options including locking at 45 frames (1/2 the refresh rate) with and without ASW on , and letting the frames "float" with or without ASW . If steam allows , you might try this . You should be able to lock at least 45 at 90 index refresh with MSAA x2 . Perhaps even 60 at 120 .

I run my tests in precisely the same manner , with the same aircraft , and lock 45 for a butter-smooth experience with MSSAx2 .

I agree - and when I was looking through those settings I was pretty amazed at how low you are having to go, considering your rig.

I have very accdeptable performance now - but I know nothing of SteamVR settings and how they affect performance even with my CV1 (I just left everything as is) let alone a brand new headset.

What I do know is that my performance in the Index is easily good enough now, and is most definitely locked at 45fps.

The only settings I fiddled with in Steam was upping the resolution to 120% - Steam had already set the refresh rate to 90Hz. Setting 80Hz actually made the graphics worse - more blur.

PS - might add that I have the grass/ground clutter completely off and the detail radius reduced to 10,000

Hello all. Have been watching all the tweaking of setting with interest. The index is great but I just can t get it to quite where I want it graphical with dcs.

Running 80hz with steam ss at 106%. PD1.0 Shadows flat or off. Msaa x2 AF x8

Textures high. Grass off. Tress midway and preload full. Nvidia settings same as Naruto posted a few pages back

Using fpsVR at 80hz both gpu and cpu are in the orange and around 18ms, 40 frames. Any higher and they’re both up in the red and the experience is awful

Considering a chip and motherboard upgrade to a 9900k? Will that unleash a decent potential gain? Would faster RAM make a difference?

8700 (non k)

Gigabyte B360 Aorus gaming

Evga ftw3 2080ti

32Gb Team group Vulcan DDR4 2400mHz

Many Thanks.

Hello all. Have been watching all the tweaking of setting with interest. The index is great but I just can t get it to quite where I want it graphical with dcs.

Running 80hz with steam ss at 106%. PD1.0 Shadows flat or off. Msaa x2 AF x8

Textures high. Grass off. Tress midway and preload full. Nvidia settings same as Naruto posted a few pages back

 

Using fpsVR at 80hz both gpu and cpu are in the orange and around 18ms, 40 frames. Any higher and they’re both up in the red and the experience is awful

 

Considering a chip and motherboard upgrade to a 9900k? Will that unleash a decent potential gain? Would faster RAM make a difference?

 

8700 (non k)

Gigabyte B360 Aorus gaming

Evga ftw3 2080ti

32Gb Team group Vulcan DDR4 2400mHz

 

Many Thanks.

Well, all I can say is that i bought a 9900K to replace my 8700K, and I sent it back as I could hardly detect any difference to anything in DCS!

Well, all I can say is that i bought a 9900K to replace my 8700K, and I sent it back as I could hardly detect any difference to anything in DCS!

Interesting. Guessing you’ve got a decent Overclock on the 8700k though. No such option with my non k unfortunately. Just not sure how much that is costing me performance wise.