Captain Orso Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Seven pounds are too much for the AV-8B to maintain level wings :( So I set up an aircraft for SEAD and accidentally added an AIM-9M to one side --I had 2x AGM-122 Sidearms on the left, and 1x AGM-122 and 1x AIM-9M on the right with the AIM-9M outboard. When I took off from the Tarawa and put wheels up, I immediately noticed the left wing pulling down for which I had to use aileron trim to even out. After investigation I discovered that I had accidentally added the AIM-9M instead of the second AGM-122 on the right. The weight difference between left and right is ... Seven Pounds! :doh: When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmidtfire Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I think that someone at Razbam should take a closer look at the FM, because there is no way Av-8B can be that sensitive. Seven pounds is enough to tip the aircraft? That would also explain the extreme imbalance and danger when a single bomb is dropped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 +1 >>> [FM] Huge roll moment with weapon release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlerus Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 +1 Jarl at YouTube DCS Service Span and Wishlist Spreadsheet Forum post for discussion of above spreadsheet Retro Electro Playlist on Spotify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Orso Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 I wouldn't go so far as to assign the issue to the FM. It might simply be that the ordnance has the wrong weight dialed in. When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfa-81 Fix Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I tried to replicate this but was unable to. Having the same setup I don´t get no uncommanded roll at all. Tried with a Hotstart Jet STO and CTO. You sure you didn´t put on an empty tank by accident? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Orso Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 I'm doing a cold start from park position 4. Ofc I'm doing STO ( nozzles 10° nozzle-stop at 60° flaps VSTOL H2O TO toe-breaks on engine slowly to 80% break-release and engine to 103% at deck-end nozzles to 60° --here I already notice the left wing tipping downward-- undercarriage up etc. ). Not sure what you mean by CTO. I have on 2 empty tanks, but I've already checked their fill level in ME and in-cockpit, and they are both empty, unless both ME and the fuel-tank-level-display are both wrong. I've been training with the Sidearm a lot the last couple of days, and I've noticed the tendency to tip away from the Sidewinder about the same as when I've fired the first of 4 Sidearms, the difference being that while firing the Sidearms during training I'm much faster than immediately after leaving the deck when the imbalance is a bit more evident, which would be expected with a weight imbalance. One could also exacerbate the situation and put two Sidearms under one wing and two Sidewinders under the other, and see what happens. When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gulredrel Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 CTO = conventional takeoff So he did land based takeoffs from runway I think. Is there any crosswind over the carrier deck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfa-81 Fix Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 I'm doing a cold start from park position 4. Ofc I'm doing STO ( I have on 2 empty tanks, but I've already checked their fill level in ME and in-cockpit, and they are both empty, unless both ME and the fuel-tank-level-display are both wrong. One could also exacerbate the situation and put two Sidearms under one wing and two Sidewinders under the other, and see what happens. Ok, did the same as you and again no roll at all. Attach a trk file please. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Orso Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Track is attached below.Seven Pounds Test.trk When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Orso Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 CTO = conventional takeoff So he did land based takeoffs from runway I think. Is there any crosswind over the carrier deck? No wind at all. When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra99 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Remember...it's not just the weight...but where it is. 7 pounds equals more moment / imbalance the farther away from centerline the weight is. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Primary Computer ASUS Z390-P, i7-9700K CPU @ 5.0Ghz, 32GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4 @ 3200Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce 1070 Ti AMP Extreme, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 NVMe drives (1Tb & 500 Gb), Windows 10 Professional, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Warthog Stick, Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle, Cougar MFDs x3, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals and TrackIR 5. -={TAC}=-DCS Server Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3, i7-3770K CPU @ 3.90GHz, 32GB G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 @ 1600Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce® GTX 970. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike88 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Agreed FM needs looked at. Fuel Imbalance of around 200-300 lbs is not noticed either in the FM as Trim will always be 0 to maintain slow flight. This is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfa-81 Fix Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Funny how everyone is eager to point out flaws in the FM without further investigation. It isn´t the FM though. It´s actually not the AIM-9M either as suggested by Captain Orso but the CAP-9M that makes the plane roll away from it. If you load a 9M on the left side and a CAP-9 on the right side the plane starts rolling to the left. Weight difference here is 2lbs, so my guess would be a drag issue rather than a weight issue. I would think that the drag should be pretty much the same for both variants and I also think that RAZBAM uses the model(s) ED provides. Thus this would be more likely something ED has to look into, right? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) Track is attached below. I tried the track, i took control but the aircraft was acting weird. I could not test some of the systems, the view was askew, etc. I created a simple mission to test and it seems the problems is the CAP-9 So on the loading screen with the loadout you had, the aircraft weight 25,471lbs. When I remove the CAP-9, the weight was 25,283lbs. So the in game weight of the Cap-9 is 188, which should give us a moment on station 7/1 of 29527 inch-pounds. The Aim-9 was 191lbs with a moment of 29998in/lbs, so it should affect the asymmetry far more, but the effect was negligible. I think something causing a problem with the cap 9, not necessarily the flight model. The track was made in Open beta , Caucasus, ver 2.5.4.26479 [ATTACH]202794[/ATTACH] Edited January 22, 2019 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmidtfire Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) Funny how everyone is eager to point out flaws in the FM without further investigation. It isn´t the FM though. It´s actually not the AIM-9M either as suggested by Captain Orso but the CAP-9M that makes the plane roll away from it. If you load a 9M on the left side and a CAP-9 on the right side the plane starts rolling to the left. Weight difference here is 2lbs, so my guess would be a drag issue rather than a weight issue. I would think that the drag should be pretty much the same for both variants and I also think that RAZBAM uses the model(s) ED provides. Thus this would be more likely something ED has to look into, right? Well... it is at least a combination. Or how the Harrier interacts with payload. Still does not explain why the Harrier flips like a pancake when I drop a single bomb off one wing. It’s way exaggerated. Edit: Now proved wrong/inaccurate in this thread https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=225371 Edited January 22, 2019 by Schmidtfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Orso Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 I tried the track, i took control but the aircraft was acting weird. I could not test some of the systems, the view was askew, etc. I fly VR. If I play the track without VR I also have the cam view offset to the left. Adjust with RShift-RCtrl-NUM6 and save with RAlt-NUM0. I created a simple mission to test and it seems the problems is the CAP-9 So on the loading screen with the loadout you had, the aircraft weight 25,471lbs. When I remove the CAP-9, the weight was 25,283lbs. So the in game weight of the Cap-9 is 188, which should give us a moment on station 7/1 of 29527 inch-pounds. The Aim-9 was 191lbs with a moment of 29998in/lbs, so it should affect the asymmetry far more, but the effect was negligible. I think something causing a problem with the cap 9, not necessarily the flight model. The track was made in Open beta , Caucasus, ver 2.5.4.26479 [ATTACH]202794[/ATTACH] I'll have to test replacing the CAP-9 with an AIM-9M, but I'm suspecting that the CAP-9 applies no weight to the airframe for the FM. What the MPCD says the total weight is with and without the CAP-9 means nothing if it's just calculated by adding different lines from a table. When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 But do you still have the problem with the AIM-9 or only with the cap-9 as I did? To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Orso Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 I tested with and AIM-9M instead of the CAP-9, and everything is balanced out, as it ought to be. So the issue is with the CAP-9. Another thing I noticed with the CAP-9, is that you can only put them on stations 1 and 7. You're not allowed to put them on 2 and 6, although the are training rounds for AIM-9s and you CAN put AIM-9s on all of 1, 2, 6, and 7. When you hit the wrong button on take-off System Specs. Spoiler System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27" CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfa-81 Fix Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Well... it is at least a combination. Or how the Harrier interacts with payload. Still does not explain why the Harrier flips like a pancake when I drop a single bomb off one wing. It’s way exaggerated. Edit: Now proved wrong/inaccurate in this thread https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=225371 "But, but , but - there IS something wrong because I want something to be wrong!" For fun - and because I knew ther result beforehand - I swapped the Harrier with the Hornet. Guess what? Rolled just like the Harrier did. "OMG! The bogus FM of the Harrier has tainted the pure code of the Hornet!" I´m excited to hear how you explain the Harrier being at fault in that case. Then again, I don´t care. People believe what they want to believe and it´s far more easy to chant Alternate Facts with the crowd than to look beyond the seemingly obvious. What´s "proved" in the thread you linked is that a great many do not know how to handle asymetric loads and ofc alot of hearsay and feelings, that´s all there is. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts