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Seven Pounds


Captain Orso

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Seven pounds are too much for the AV-8B to maintain level wings :(

 

So I set up an aircraft for SEAD and accidentally added an AIM-9M to one side --I had 2x AGM-122 Sidearms on the left, and 1x AGM-122 and 1x AIM-9M on the right with the AIM-9M outboard.

 

When I took off from the Tarawa and put wheels up, I immediately noticed the left wing pulling down for which I had to use aileron trim to even out.

 

After investigation I discovered that I had accidentally added the AIM-9M instead of the second AGM-122 on the right.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=202575&stc=1&d=1547941558

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=202574&stc=1&d=1547941558

 

The weight difference between left and right is ... Seven Pounds! :doh:

412453205_Sidearmx2.thumb.png.6eb1539a773afc2c5380bd9b9b84cdfe.png

184876302_SidearmandSidewinder.thumb.png.14d5d5c7ea10d9d770b4e55b0ea31462.png

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

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System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I wouldn't go so far as to assign the issue to the FM. It might simply be that the ordnance has the wrong weight dialed in.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I'm doing a cold start from park position 4. Ofc I'm doing STO (

nozzles 10°

nozzle-stop at 60°

flaps VSTOL

H2O TO

toe-breaks on

engine slowly to 80%

break-release and engine to 103%

at deck-end nozzles to 60°

--here I already notice the left wing tipping downward--

undercarriage up

etc.

).

 

Not sure what you mean by CTO.

 

I have on 2 empty tanks, but I've already checked their fill level in ME and in-cockpit, and they are both empty, unless both ME and the fuel-tank-level-display are both wrong.

 

I've been training with the Sidearm a lot the last couple of days, and I've noticed the tendency to tip away from the Sidewinder about the same as when I've fired the first of 4 Sidearms, the difference being that while firing the Sidearms during training I'm much faster than immediately after leaving the deck when the imbalance is a bit more evident, which would be expected with a weight imbalance.

 

One could also exacerbate the situation and put two Sidearms under one wing and two Sidewinders under the other, and see what happens.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I'm doing a cold start from park position 4. Ofc I'm doing STO (

 

I have on 2 empty tanks, but I've already checked their fill level in ME and in-cockpit, and they are both empty, unless both ME and the fuel-tank-level-display are both wrong.

 

One could also exacerbate the situation and put two Sidearms under one wing and two Sidewinders under the other, and see what happens.

 

Ok, did the same as you and again no roll at all.

Attach a trk file please.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Track is attached below.

Seven Pounds Test.trk

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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CTO = conventional takeoff

So he did land based takeoffs from runway I think.

Is there any crosswind over the carrier deck?

 

No wind at all.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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Remember...it's not just the weight...but where it is. 7 pounds equals more moment / imbalance the farther away from centerline the weight is.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Funny how everyone is eager to point out flaws in the FM without further investigation.

 

It isn´t the FM though.

It´s actually not the AIM-9M either as suggested by Captain Orso but the CAP-9M that makes the plane roll away from it. If you load a 9M on the left side and a CAP-9 on the right side the plane starts rolling to the left. Weight difference here is 2lbs, so my guess would be a drag issue rather than a weight issue.

 

I would think that the drag should be pretty much the same for both variants and I also think that RAZBAM uses the model(s) ED provides. Thus this would be more likely something ED has to look into, right?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Track is attached below.

 

I tried the track, i took control but the aircraft was acting weird. I could not test some of the systems, the view was askew, etc.

 

I created a simple mission to test and it seems the problems is the CAP-9

So on the loading screen with the loadout you had, the aircraft weight 25,471lbs. When I remove the CAP-9, the weight was 25,283lbs. So the in game weight of the Cap-9 is 188, which should give us a moment on station 7/1 of 29527 inch-pounds.

 

The Aim-9 was 191lbs with a moment of 29998in/lbs, so it should affect the asymmetry far more, but the effect was negligible. I think something causing a problem with the cap 9, not necessarily the flight model.

 

 

The track was made in Open beta , Caucasus, ver 2.5.4.26479

[ATTACH]202794[/ATTACH]


Edited by mvsgas

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Funny how everyone is eager to point out flaws in the FM without further investigation.

 

It isn´t the FM though.

It´s actually not the AIM-9M either as suggested by Captain Orso but the CAP-9M that makes the plane roll away from it. If you load a 9M on the left side and a CAP-9 on the right side the plane starts rolling to the left. Weight difference here is 2lbs, so my guess would be a drag issue rather than a weight issue.

 

I would think that the drag should be pretty much the same for both variants and I also think that RAZBAM uses the model(s) ED provides. Thus this would be more likely something ED has to look into, right?

 

Well... it is at least a combination. Or how the Harrier interacts with payload. Still does not explain why the Harrier flips like a pancake when I drop a single bomb off one wing. It’s way exaggerated.

 

Edit: Now proved wrong/inaccurate in this thread

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=225371


Edited by Schmidtfire
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I tried the track, i took control but the aircraft was acting weird. I could not test some of the systems, the view was askew, etc.

 

I fly VR. If I play the track without VR I also have the cam view offset to the left. Adjust with RShift-RCtrl-NUM6 and save with RAlt-NUM0.

 

I created a simple mission to test and it seems the problems is the CAP-9

So on the loading screen with the loadout you had, the aircraft weight 25,471lbs. When I remove the CAP-9, the weight was 25,283lbs. So the in game weight of the Cap-9 is 188, which should give us a moment on station 7/1 of 29527 inch-pounds.

 

The Aim-9 was 191lbs with a moment of 29998in/lbs, so it should affect the asymmetry far more, but the effect was negligible. I think something causing a problem with the cap 9, not necessarily the flight model.

 

 

The track was made in Open beta , Caucasus, ver 2.5.4.26479

[ATTACH]202794[/ATTACH]

 

I'll have to test replacing the CAP-9 with an AIM-9M, but I'm suspecting that the CAP-9 applies no weight to the airframe for the FM. What the MPCD says the total weight is with and without the CAP-9 means nothing if it's just calculated by adding different lines from a table.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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But do you still have the problem with the AIM-9 or only with the cap-9 as I did?

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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I tested with and AIM-9M instead of the CAP-9, and everything is balanced out, as it ought to be.

 

So the issue is with the CAP-9.

 

Another thing I noticed with the CAP-9, is that you can only put them on stations 1 and 7. You're not allowed to put them on 2 and 6, although the are training rounds for AIM-9s and you CAN put AIM-9s on all of 1, 2, 6, and 7.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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Well... it is at least a combination. Or how the Harrier interacts with payload. Still does not explain why the Harrier flips like a pancake when I drop a single bomb off one wing. It’s way exaggerated.

 

Edit: Now proved wrong/inaccurate in this thread

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=225371

 

 

"But, but , but - there IS something wrong because I want something to be wrong!"

 

For fun - and because I knew ther result beforehand - I swapped the Harrier with the Hornet. Guess what? Rolled just like the Harrier did.

 

"OMG! The bogus FM of the Harrier has tainted the pure code of the Hornet!"

I´m excited to hear how you explain the Harrier being at fault in that case.

 

Then again, I don´t care. People believe what they want to believe and it´s far more easy to chant Alternate Facts with the crowd than to look beyond the seemingly obvious.

 

What´s "proved" in the thread you linked is that a great many do not know how to handle asymetric loads and ofc alot of hearsay and feelings, that´s all there is.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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