TOSS release HUD symbology

For TOSS release, the manual states that one has to pull the trigger when markers in HUD appear. My understanding is that this happens after going trigger UNSAFE and already being in a climb.

However, for me the markers appear directly when I set the weapon selector to BOMB RR (flying level and far away from the target). This is independent of the master mode NAV/ANF and trigger SAFE/UNSAFE setting.

So my question is, when exactly do I have to pull the trigger?

Also, at what point can I start to pull up? Is it directly when the distance line appears or when it has at a specific length, e.g. is at the 2° poles?

(I watched Bunyap's video about the TOSS release and he also seems to have some issues with it.)

What range you get really depends on speed, but 4.5km is a good rule of thumb. M0.8 = 4.4km, M0.85 = 4.6km, M0.9 = 4.8km. It's on page 311 in the manual.

You will have to estimate pull up distance based on these numbers, but if you're fast enough 4.5 usually does the trick.

What I do is keep it in NAV mode. Fly straight towards the target. Unsafe at about 5km. Pull up with 4G at about 4.5km and keep the trigger held when the climb has been established (very soon after the pull up). If done correctly the bombs should come off when the time is right and land in a line through the target. I'ts not strictly by the procedure in the manual, but it works pretty well.

The hard part isn't hitting the target in the vertical "lengt wise" plane, but rather in the horizontal plane. Not many bombs will fall on the waypoint, but the center of the ripple should be somewhat close.

As for the symbology, I too get the range markers straight away, but they move laterally when you pull Gs so that might give you a feel for the range etc.

I hope this helps. Ask again if anything seems unclear. Happy bombing! It takes quite a bit of practice. :)

Thanks Jan! Very informative as always :thumbup:

Maybe one more question just to be sure. You get the distance to target from the distance indicator, right?

There is no way to get the correct distance to the pull-up point from the distance line in the HUD like with the Lysbomb?

I have actually yet to try the illumination bombs in the Viggen. I simply haven't gotten around to it. I have been unable to discern any way of reading the proper pull up distance from the hud. I simply read the range from the range needle in the cockpit. It might not be the right way, but it's been working pretty well so far. :)

If you do discover an indication of the proper pull up range, please tell me. :)

If you do discover an indication of the proper pull up range, please tell me. :)

I'm also curious about this, since I started TOSS-bombing about a week ago. :huh:

Last night I flew a mission of the official mini-campain, where you are supposed to TOSS bomb an airfield (think it was #4).

In the mission briefing it said something like "fly at M 0.8 and pull up 4.4 km away from the target". So probably there is just not more to it than what Jan already described above.

Hey folks!

Flying now in 1.5.8., I didn't manage to place any bomb right on target.

No matter what I try, they fell about 100 to 200 meters too far, never too close.

What can I do to improve this? What are your experiences?

Thanks and kind regards,

TOViper

Hey folks!

 

Flying now in 1.5.8., I didn't manage to place any bomb right on target.

No matter what I try, they fell about 100 to 200 meters too far, never too close.

What can I do to improve this? What are your experiences?

 

Thanks and kind regards,

TOViper

ok, here some additional information:

- the target is a bridge

- navigation accuracy is 5 (max)

- dive angle is about 10 degress

- speed is always between 800 and 1000 km/h

- level of mystification rises :lol:

Should focus on hunting MiGs instead of stupid ground targets ... :music_whistling:

:xmas::xmas::xmas: BTW: Happy Christmas fellow users of this great forum! :xmas::xmas::xmas:

If you have a dive angle in TOSS bombing you're doing something wrong :huh:

Merry Christmas to you too :)

If you have a dive angle in TOSS bombing you're doing something wrong :huh:

 

Merry Christmas to you too :)

erm ... erm ... of course. Its a "negative dive angle". Sorry, it should read "climb angle" ... :music_whistling:

and confirming ... I am TOSS - bombing ... like in the Tornado ... which should really be a thing ...

I'll pass this along for testing.

yeah, but please don't blame me if i was too stupid for this obviously easy task ... okayyyy? :lol:

I’ve had a look at the TOSS-bombing inaccuracies and improved it somewhat (pending next DCS-update) BUT it is very tricky to get perfect. I’m simulating a update-cycle speed for the CK that while probably correct and still kind of fast it’s still slow for calculating the ballistics when doing TOSS-deliveries or flying really fast. All sensors in the Viggen also has small lags and inaccuracies which add up. You can see the update-rate of the CK if you slow down the time and watch the HUD. I’m trying a lot of trickery to anticipate the next cycle but it will always be a little off unless the frequency is increased or sensor accuracy is improved. Bombing-accuracy should be better if you don’t fly too fast or pull too much G, at least in theory.

Thanks, much appreciated!

Do I understand this correctly, that the slowish update cycle was there on the real Viggen and you are trying to simulate it in the game or is it a result from the game itself?

I’ve had a look at the TOSS-bombing inaccuracies and improved it somewhat (pending next DCS-update) BUT it is very tricky to get perfect. I’m simulating a update-cycle speed for the CK that while probably correct and still kind of fast it’s still slow for calculating the ballistics when doing TOSS-deliveries or flying really fast. All sensors in the Viggen also has small lags and inaccuracies which add up. You can see the update-rate of the CK if you slow down the time and watch the HUD. I’m trying a lot of trickery to anticipate the next cycle but it will always be a little off unless the frequency is increased or sensor accuracy is improved. Bombing-accuracy should be better if you don’t fly too fast or pull too much G, at least in theory.

Hey RagnarDa,

have you already implemented your small corrections to any update for 2.5.

I am still working hard to increase my accuracy, and most of the time the bombs fall too far.

Anyone else with these problems?

Hey RagnarDa,

 

have you already implemented your small corrections to any update for 2.5.

Not yet:

No changes in the latest two hotfixes. We're working towards the major patches.

Thanx very much for the clearification!

Hm ... when do you think ED will do some update?

Maybe in 1 week, 1 month, 1 year?

just asking ... :)

Since I have a little more work to do at the moment I will park my Viggen in my hangar, but if there is any update, I will prioritize things differently :joystick:

< 2 month is my guess.

Usually there are smaller hotfixes every week. I'm sure there's some place for a Viggen update in the next weeks.

Also, don't forget that other stuff is going on too. For example the Ka-50 Cockpit Fix.

And the Viggen is preparing a bigger update, with a full singleplayer campaign.

Heatblur is working towards the bigger updated, omitting the smaller hotfixes.

Post deleted since it was nonsense.

Thought I found something, but used inexact QFE settings.

What still is true that bombs fall too far, in approx. 95% of all cases.

Sometimes they hit, but the percentage is so low that I can forget about.

Solution ... ?

Hey folks,

I did some more testing during the last few days, and I can give you the following tips for bombing in TOSS mode with low drag bombs:

.) set QFE as nearest as possible to the calculated value

.) fly between M.07 and M.075

.) be careful with inputs while aiming laterally, don't roll while pulling the stick

By following these steps my success rate has significantly increased.

What I changed in comparison to earlier testing was to reduce speed, coming down from M.09 to M.07. So far that is all what I can do for this issue. :joystick:

Kind regards,

TOViper

Reopening this one and addressing RagnarDa and HB in general.

Some of us have been performing tests in the current stable release 2.5.3.24984.

Toss bombing is constantly too long. The variation is in the region of +500 m (1600 ft) regardless of what we do.

The system works well for laydown bombing, so my guess is that it's not that the CK37 is doing anything wrong. Rather i fear the error comes from the way you (HB) calculate the atmosphere vs how ED have coded it. I know this has caused you problems in the past.

It would be nice if the Toss would work properly :)

For now, I advise all Toss missions to displace the waypoint by 500 m.

You can also look here

Regards

Heo!

Thanks for the link to the video!

Honestly speaking, am loosing track at 04:02.

Two issues for me to be cleared up:

.) First @04:02:

What is the speaker exactly saying starting from there? I just cant figure it out ... sorry :(

.) Second @04:07:

Why is the pilot showing a mouse movement from center to the position of the "1g labelling" on the the g-indicator when he is saying: "when the g's are stable again ... ".

According to the manual the g's have to be stable around 4g until the bombs have released (RC1 page 314), which means that when the bombs are released by the computer, the g's still must be onset!

The wrongly performed procedure can be seen in the very first scene of this movie at exactly 0:11, where the pilot obviously releases the stick after pulling the aircraft up to a certain flight path angle, and then releasing the bombs. Also at 5:50 I also can see that the pilot only has only 2g's onset.

I am sorry, but I consider this wrong procedure. :noexpression:

The thing is that there is no procedure for Toss in the declassified manuals. Those parts aren't in it. My guess is that HB have written what made sense to them, but I may stand corrected.

But if you go to any other aircraft/procedure that uses Toss/loft, you want the G to be stable. The reason is that it minimizes spread. You can add reach by adding Gs, but at the cost of accuracy.

The old venerable Tornado manual describes this very well:

The image is attached

The thing is that there is no procedure for Toss in the declassified manuals. Those parts aren't in it. My guess is that HB have written what made sense to them, but I may stand corrected. ....... .... ..... The image is attached

Yep, I can follow you on this 100%.

RagnarDa: Should we follow RC1 manual (which I guess so) ... ?

BTW: the manual with which I learned flying back in 1991 ....

I simply love this manual ... despite RC1 is nice too :)