AIM-120C Inaccurate?

Is it just me or is the range of the AIM-120C on the F-15 highly inaccurate? Meaning the range is about half on this game than in real life.

For example if a Mig is heading straight for the F-15, the AIM-120C isn't ready to launch until about 15nm from the target. If the target is flying in another direction or running, then the launch range is about 10nm or even less.

According to the U.S. airforce and Raytheon, the AIM-120 has a range to about 20-30nm. That's well within an engagement range. But this game doesn't allow you to engage until the target is less than 20nm flying straight towards you.

Why is that? Is the game's missile range inaccurate? It's called a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) weapon, but this game almost waits till you can see the target before you can use the AIM-120C.

Would love any feedback on this.

Under what circumstances are you flying?

Altitude?

Closure speed?

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Do you know under what circumstances the Aim-120 was tested in your sources?

What I can recommend you is to fly at 30K with a closure speed of 1200 knots and see again at what range you can launch it. If i'm not mistaking, you should be able to get a 20 - 30 miles shot with those circumstances.

While razo+r is right, missile ranges in DCS is a bit lackluster and has been discussed in great lenght for over a decade. Known and a bit of a touchy issue, but ED team are working on it. Expect to see more tweaks when the Hornet goes amraam. Stay tuned.

I think the farthest I've managed to lob an AIM-120 on something and score a kill was either 60 or 80 nm. But this was under extreme conditions (speed altitude).

That said, DCS missiles do under perform. They're draggy and don't use advanced guidance. ED has said that they plan to address this in the future.

Under what circumstances are you flying?

 

Altitude?

Closure speed?

.

.

.

 

 

Do you know under what circumstances the Aim-120 was tested in your sources?

 

What I can recommend you is to fly at 30K with a closure speed of 1200 knots and see again at what range you can launch it. If i'm not mistaking, you should be able to get a 20 - 30 miles shot with those circumstances.

Can you reach 1200 knots at 30k in this game? That's another test because I do not recall being able to reach those speeds or even being close to it at 30k feet. Regardless, I've had various speeds and altitudes and I've yet to see a fire queue greater than 20nm. Have you?

Can you reach 1200 knots at 30k in this game? That's another test because I do not recall being able to reach those speeds or even being close to it at 30k feet. Regardless, I've had various speeds and altitudes and I've yet to see a fire queue greater than 20nm. Have you?

1200 knots CLOSURE speed equals 2*600 knots or a different combination. :P

Edit:

From my test which i did a long time ago:

closure speed: 1300 knots, 32,5K feet

maximum launch range is nearly 40 miles

HPK zone is about 10 miles

See attached picture:

1400 knots closure speed at 33k feet, maximum launch range just below 40 miles.

See attached picture:

 

1400 knots closure speed at 33k feet, maximum launch range just below 40 miles.

I see your point. Thanks for sharing!

I think the farthest I've managed to lob an AIM-120 on something and score a kill was either 60 or 80 nm. But this was under extreme conditions (speed altitude).

 

That said, DCS missiles do under perform. They're draggy and don't use advanced guidance. ED has said that they plan to address this in the future.

I’d like to see that.

Is it just me or is the range of the AIM-120C on the F-15 highly inaccurate?

Oh, please, not again. Been talked all over this forum for years. Having constant 30km hit range for AIM-120 in sims like F-19, undependent on any conditions, not even closure speed, spoiled us all facing reality 20 years later ;)

According to the U.S. airforce and Raytheon, the AIM-120 has a range to about 20-30nm. That's well within an engagement range. But this game doesn't allow you to engage until the target is less than 20nm flying straight towards you.

Even your source does mention MAXIMUM range only. Consider kill range much less than that depending on many conditions. And the F-15C does allow you to launch at any time - you don't have to wait for shoot cue and it's not pointless to do so if you know what you're doing.

It isn't maximum range. It's just some range ;)

Even your source does mention MAXIMUM range only. Consider kill range much less than that depending on many conditions. And the F-15C does allow you to launch at any time - you don't have to wait for shoot cue and it's not pointless to do so if you know what you're doing.

I’d like to see that.

I could try to make a track. Keep in mind that I really did mean extreme conditions though. Maybe 60000 ft and Mach 4 closure velocity. It was against a MiG-25 at full speed.

It was possible back in FC2 or even FC1.12 against non maneuvering tgts

This was in FC3, and yes non maneuvering target.

Is it just me or is the range of the AIM-120C on the F-15 highly inaccurate? Meaning the range is about half on this game than in real life.

 

For example if a Mig is heading straight for the F-15, the AIM-120C isn't ready to launch until about 15nm from the target. If the target is flying in another direction or running, then the launch range is about 10nm or even less.

 

According to the U.S. airforce and Raytheon, the AIM-120 has a range to about 20-30nm. That's well within an engagement range. But this game doesn't allow you to engage until the target is less than 20nm flying straight towards you.

 

Why is that? Is the game's missile range inaccurate? It's called a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) weapon, but this game almost waits till you can see the target before you can use the AIM-120C.

 

Would love any feedback on this.

Oh gosh, there we go again :D

I really s*k with the Aim120, but that's probably my fault. Yesterday I had a head on fight with a SU27. I aproached at 44k feet at 250 kts IAS. He was at 20nm at 22k feet when I had an RWR warning that he launched. So I launched an AMRAAM and started cranking dropping chaffs. I turned hot, fired again, and again, but he also kept launching. I dove, cranked to the other side, did all I could while keeping him on the radar screen, and kept firing AMRAAMs but none hit. Of course, I was hit by one of his missiles.

PS: no I don't have tackview.

Yep they need to fix the win button. :D

I really s*k with the Aim120, but that's probably my fault. Yesterday I had a head on fight with a SU27. I aproached at 44k feet at 250 kts IAS. He was at 20nm at 22k feet when I had an RWR warning that he launched. So I launched an AMRAAM and started cranking dropping chaffs. I turned hot, fired again, and again, but he also kept launching. I dove, cranked to the other side, did all I could while keeping him on the radar screen, and kept firing AMRAAMs but none hit. Of course, I was hit by one of his missiles.

 

PS: no I don't have tackview.

What mode did you use for lock?

If you shot in TWS, then your AIM-120 has big inaccuracy as it gets only few times a update to the target in mid-course, and the radar track is very inaccurate for maneuvering target as it can't get acquired few updates (few seconds between each update) to get more accurate estimation of the location where the target will be or you even can drop the lock if track is wrong, so your AIM-120 is flying with very huge error in it. And you need to keep the target continually locked to keep feeding information without maneuvering too hard yourself.

But in STT mode you would keep constant update of the target, no delays, no lag and AIM-120 has best change to reach the point to acquire target by itself so you can turn away or maneuver even harder.

The difference is very big between TWS and STT how accurate you are. Think it like a strobo beam light at 0.25hz update vs constant beam light and you would need to keep that light pointing a moving target. It is easy if the target movement is predictable as you quickly in few blinks get the pace of the movement, but if the target movement is random, then you are constantly trying to find it again in those short blinks of times.

To make it more realistic, now try to throw something at the target in those two methods and guess which one is easier for you to hit the target?

A good pilot is maneuvering but as well getting distance all the time. As the radars has two tracking gates, primary is the predicted intercept point but then the second gate is the actual location as an backup. So if the target doesn't really move a lot but maneuvers a lot in small area throwing the predicted intercept point all around, primary is then rejected and secondary is used for guidance to get closer. That is one reason why all the quick rolls and quick turns has no benefits as you are not really moving a lot in your area, even when your speed and heading between updates predicts otherwise.

And then comes all the missile maneuvers, as every maneuver missile does causes more drag, so it is wanted that missile maneuvers as little as possible and does only periodically the harder corrections when it is required so there is enough energy, but still not too much, for the terminal phase to do the final maneuvers.

What mode did you use for lock?

 

If you shot in TWS, then your AIM-120 has big inaccuracy as it gets only few times a update to the target in mid-course, and the radar track is very inaccurate for maneuvering target as it can't get acquired few updates (few seconds between each update) to get more accurate estimation of the location where the target will be or you even can drop the lock if track is wrong, so your AIM-120 is flying with very huge error in it. And you need to keep the target continually locked to keep feeding information without maneuvering too hard yourself.

Would you like to stop spreading this misinformation now? It's starting to look like you just want people to STT you so that you get that warning.

Everything you've said here is absolutely N/A DCS, and not a big deal in RL either.

The difference is very big between TWS and STT how accurate you are.

Zero difference in DCS. TWS is, however, drops contact immediately when notched, which is incorrect.

Think it like a strobo beam light at 0.25hz update vs constant beam light and you would need to keep that light pointing a moving target.

Yout know, if you consider that your best ITR is 32deg, just how much change can you affect in 1/4sec, and why would an AMRAAM care?

Again, most of the what you've said is plain N/A in DCS, and in the real world, filters are applied to deal with. Are there drawbacks? Of course there, which is why there are tactics/techniques (eg. you might go STT around pitbull or even earlier). But again ... unless your goal is to ensure than you can enter MEM mode due to the target notching, STT has zero advantages over TWS in DCS.

See attached picture:

 

1400 knots closure speed at 33k feet, maximum launch range just below 40 miles.

I do believe that I have had over 1000kts ground speed before.. Mach 2.5 60k ft..

entirely possible to get close to 2k kts closer rate in this game. :pilotfly:

I also want to point out that I've said this before, a family member who flew f15cs has said 20+NM shots with the aim120 are lethal against maneuvering targets. He stated he has shot 20nm against [i believe a q4f] drones that were evasive maneuvering and hit them. His indications and verbage pretty much said 20nm is a sweet spot with the 120s

The other night I did a "fast mission", I first thing I see are 6 unfriendly planes heading at me in a nice tight group. I can barely hold my own in a one v one so I fired 4 unlocked aim 120s to distract them and got out of there.

I have read that the aim 120 if launched without a lock will turn on it's own radar and start hunting.

After action report says I got two kills, not bad for a shoot an scoot. :thumbup:

The other night I did a "fast mission", I first thing I see are 6 unfriendly planes heading at me in a nice tight group. I can barely hold my own in a one v one so I fired 4 unlocked aim 120s to distract them and got out of there.

I have read that the aim 120 if launched without a lock will turn on it's own radar and start hunting.

After action report says I got two kills, not bad for a shoot an scoot. :thumbup:

That sounds dangerous, and would result in a lot of friendly kills if not used very wisely.

I don't think there is an IFF function in the AIM-120's radar.

I have read that the aim 120 if launched without a lock will turn on it's own radar and start hunting.

It will start to hunt, whatever it's gonna see. Even your stepmother :P

In previous times people liked to fire R-27ET R-77 without lock. It was nice trick and Eagle drivers were angry :D

It will start to hunt, whatever it's gonna see. Even your stepmother :P

It happened to me. I once shoot at a group of enemies and somewhere beyond them friendly eagle got hit. Although I'm pretty sure all AIM-120's were locked.

In previous times people liked to fire R-27ET R-77 without lock. It was nice trick and Eagle drivers were angry :D

They still can do that with EOS, don't they?

They still can do that with EOS, don't they?

Not with T\ET anymore. Long time ago it was possible and widely used tactic where you released the missile 30 km (or further if on 12k km alt) from the enemy lol :D

You found him on radar, projected more-less its path (example toward you head to head), turned radar off and released ET.

Enemy thought that you don't lock him on radar and ET later acquired targed.

It was total fantasy as R-27E(T) are LOBL missiles.

Anyway, it was fun though :D Later as people saw "toilet paper" on the sky while having no waring on RWR and quite long distance, they suspected that ET is already flying to them, but they had to be more experienced pilots to notice such danger.

Not with T\ET anymore.

So they have to paint me with the radar (so I see RWR spike) but I won't get any launch/missile warning, right? What about R-73? It's LOBL too.

So they have to paint me with the radar (so I see RWR spike) but I won't get any launch/missile warning, right? What about R-73? It's LOBL too.

They will use radar or EOS to lock on you. Radar is better because of more information but you will see it on your RWR. If they use simpler EOS then you see nothing.

R-27ET has same IR head as R-73. Both have to get lock before launch, otherwise short after the head of the missile would be broken.

So effective ET range has been decreased because of more realistic behaviour. No more maddog IR missiles :D

You can fire IR in manual mode without lock, but it doesn't guarantee success, surely not for long or middle ranges.