How does the SD-10 missile compare to the AIM-120C?

Thank you Shdow Frost, very excited

We replicated the 2 launches that are seen in the latest Deka video and compared TOF for the 120B/C and ER.

In that very limited test the SD10 was much faster than the 120B, significantly faster than the 120C and slightly faster than the ER.

Oh god, the

 

"I, a frequent reader of the wikipedias dont agree with this source and therefore have to discredit the writer (who writes for a couple of well regarded international and national publications) because otherwise I would be wrong"

 

arguments are pure cringe.

My arguments aren't based on Wikipedia sources.

By the way, AA missile launch range means nothing without parameters:

- shooter speed & altitude

- target speed & altitude

- aspect angle

And of course, shooting range is longer than missile's travel distance.

You can try that in game with TacView.

For radar range you need targte's RCS and to know if it's free space (look up) or cluttered background (look down), target aspect and closing velocity will play too.

In that regard https://www.ausairpower.net is no better than Wikipedia: no launch parameters.

Shooting a M2.0 target flying at 15km while doing the same won't give the same range as shooting M0.9 at 10km altitude which is much more common.

You may dash between M1.2 and M1.6 at most.

That's why most open source AA missile range doesn't reflect in game. These are edge firing cases.

So to make it short, yes , I value a MiG-29 9.12a pilot's manual over some Australian guy with PhD (what's the last Australian AA missile produced ?) .

Open source magazine are often very optimistic, and those who knows are much amused by it.

Moreover: common sense.

Look at the missile's parameters. Similar shape, similar size and weight won't give much different range.

SD-10 may be a good missile, but it isn't a technological rupture.

For instance Meteor is a very different beast with air-breathing, throttle-able engine and even stop & start capacity. So it can have greater range or terminal velocity than comparable rocket propelled missiles.

Finally: military simulators attract a lot of different guys.

But some of them are current or former military, or engineers in the defense industry.

It takes some time to assess who is who and who knows what.

So be careful when you accuse someone of knowing nothing more than Wikipedia. You may make a fool of yourself.

Its simple - simulation of this missile PL-12 (SD-10) will be science fiction

maybe like the rest of the components from this aircraft ..

Few facts:

1) SD-10 (PL-12) never carried on JF-17

2) SD-10 (PL-12) never fired from JF-17

3) Never used in battle

4) Nobody from Pakistan air force doesn't know the performance this missile has.

5) In china is this reverse-engineered Russian made R-77 still in testing ..

6) Pakistani pilots of JF-17 use these tactics - for medium-range shooting - CALL F-16 with amraam! This is an IRL situation from Indo-Pakistani Kashmir territory.

Also, before time one F-16 shot-down Indian plane with amraam ..

7) Yes, Pakistani airforce has these missiles ordered. But they haven't arrived yet ..

1) SD-10 (PL-12) never carried on JF-17

2) SD-10 (PL-12) never fired from JF-17

JF17's production company Chengdu also designed the J-10 series on which the PL-12 has been extensively tested and already entered service. It sounds like you are trying to suggest that PL-12 works on J-10 but somehow stops functioning on a different airframe with similar radar and onboard systems?

Edit: a bit of search and it is rather simple to find JF-17 footage with SD-10 loaded, so this statement is completely false

3) Never used in battle

Same can be said for most a2a missiles entering service in or near this decade.

4) Nobody from Pakistan air force doesn't know the performance this missile has.

6) Pakistani pilots of JF-17 use these tactics - for medium-range shooting - CALL F-16 with amraam! This is an IRL situation from Indo-Pakistani Kashmir territory.

Also, before time one F-16 shot-down Indian plane with amraam ..

7) Yes, Pakistani airforce has these missiles ordered. But they haven't arrived yet ..

So if the pakis have no idea about SD10's performance and doesn't trust its capabilities then why put orders for them? Don't you think they would test the missiles before buying? Just like when they bought the aircraft itself a decade ago and decided to license the entire production line?

5) In china is this reverse-engineered Russian made R-77 still in testing ..

No, they are *rumoured* to have data-link compatibility with R-77 because of *also rumoured* Russian involvement during development. The two missile's airframes are significantly different both structurally and aerodynamically to call one a reverse engineered product of the other. The PL-12 project started in the 1990s, earliest A model testing finished in 2005 and entered small batch production. There are currently PL-12B, C and heavily modified D model with ramjet booster either in service or under testing, yes China is still developing new models as we speak, but it doesn't mean the export models are immature and underdevelopment because newer models are being tested.

I'm not an expert on JF-17/ SD-10, but what about this kind of picture ?

Is it fake ?

It looks like it's in active service.

Yes, PAF it have 16 days ..

https://twitter.com/defencedotpak/status/1168127522694926336

.. and Deka Ironwork Simulations exactly know all about performances these missiles :lol:

Yes, PAF it have 16 days ..

https://twitter.com/defencedotpak/status/1168127522694926336

 

.. and Deka Ironwork Simulations exactly know all about performances these missiles :lol:

Im not entirely sure what you've been going on about, but the SD-10 (PL-12) is the weapon the JF-17 has been planned to be equipped with since it reached operational service with block I.

I think you may be confused with the PL-15 which has been trialed on block II (planned for III) and may see active service with block II due to PAK concerns about adversaries out-ranging the SD-10 (PL-12).

SD-10s were considered against the MBDA MICA in 2007

https://web.archive.org/web/20080225164219/http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw071129_1_n.shtml

And then pictures from 2013/2012 of PAK aircraft carrying SD-10 and presumably since even earlier during testing.

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2013/07/jf-17-armed-with-2-x-sd-10-bvraams.html

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2012/10/jf-17-spotted-with-pl-12sd-10-beyond.html

First operational squadron was established in 2010 with 14 aircraft and have been steadily increasing sense.

And a source that confirms it was the weapon to be used on JF-17 from 2009

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-begins-domestic-final-assembly-of-jf-17-329056/

Which also confirms talks of the MBDA MICA from the first source.

Edit- Additional source

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2012/11/jf-17-thunder-fighter-gets-airborne.html

Will we get any SAHM missile?

Will we get any SAHM missile?

I do not believe so

Will we get any SAHM missile?

That's an interesting question really makes me think what planes aside from some J-8s in PLAAF stock can use the PL-11?

Will we get any SAHM missile?

I dont believe so, in everything I've read there hasn't been any indication of such a weapon. I think we all need to realize is that this aircraft is quite modern, the 6th prototype being created in 2006. With initial small batch production (of 2?) in early 2007 sent to Pakistan. The first squadron of 14 (in Pakistan) reached initial operational capability in early 2010 to give an idea of how few there were just under 10 years ago.

So referencing the above, I dont think any SARH weapon was requested (or developed) as more advanced full active missiles are currently the standard. It being so new, it just wasn't developed as technology moves forward.

Obviously, nothing official, but I've done a lot of reading and haven't seen any hints towards such a weapon. I'm sure a Deka Dev will respond at some point, they are just very busy, so hopefully my answer is sufficient until then.

Im not entirely sure what you've been going on about, but the SD-10 (PL-12) is the weapon the JF-17 has been equipped with since it reached operational service with block I.

 

I think you may be confused with the PL-15 which has been trialed on block II (planned for III) and may see active service with block II due to PAK concerns about adversaries out-ranging the SD-10 (PL-12).

 

SD-10s were considered against the MBDA MICA in 2007

https://web.archive.org/web/20080225164219/http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw071129_1_n.shtml

 

And then pictures from 2013/2012 of PAK aircraft carrying SD-10 and presumably since even earlier during testing.

 

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2013/07/jf-17-armed-with-2-x-sd-10-bvraams.html

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2012/10/jf-17-spotted-with-pl-12sd-10-beyond.html

 

First operational squadron was established in 2010 with 14 aircraft and have been steadily increasing sense.

 

And a source that confirms it was the weapon to be used on JF-17 from 2009

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-begins-domestic-final-assembly-of-jf-17-329056/

Which also confirms talks of the MBDA MICA from the first source.

 

Edit- Additional source

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2012/11/jf-17-thunder-fighter-gets-airborne.html

No. PAF pilots (JF-17) before did flying only with short range AA missiles.

It knows from PAF pilots interviews.

For medium-range intercept had PAF only F-16 with amraam.

No. PAF pilots (JF-17) before did flying only with short range AA missiles.

It knows from PAF pilots interviews.

For medium-range intercept had PAF only F-16 with amraam.

Would you like to provide more information to what you say? Yeah, 2012/2013 was the first time SD-10 was spotted on JF-17's carried by PAK. They don't exactly post information related to their complete testing process so its hard to know exactly when the SD-10 was operationally ready.

What year are you saying the SD-10 became operational?

Because a few posts back you seemed to give the impression that it was only very recently. Im not saying its been there operationally ready the entire time, but that its been there for several years. But even then, its been known about for a while, on the aircraft since at least 2013, theres no way its some missile out of the blue that Deka wouldn't have information on to model it. And I imagine they wouldn't model it if they didn't have the data.

If it was the PL-15 I completely understand the argument. But A- the SD-10 (PL-12) has been around for a while. B- its been tested/operationally used of the JF-17 for years. Earliest pictures I found were 2012/2013.

I understand if you can't find the source for your interview recently referenced, but please going forward provide sources. As when you make a claim like

"1) SD-10 (PL-12) never carried on JF-17

7) Yes, Pakistani airforce has these missiles ordered. But they haven't arrived yet .."

That are easily counter-able, you lose credibility. Now if your saying the SD-10 wasn't operationally ready and only been testing from 2012/2013. That's possible, but I would want to see evidence. If your also saying that the missiles were not in inventory in large enough numbers that is also fine, but to those of us reading, those come off as blanket statements. Where when a decent google search provides images to the contrary, its important to provide evidence to your side. I'm not saying everything I've posted is correct, I try to be fact based with what is available to me. Which means if you have information that contradicts what I share/cite please provide it as I understand sources can have a degree of inaccuracy.

And I will concede, after reading my post, it should have been planned to equip SD-10, not "has been equipped" as the earliest sources I've seen of the SD-10 on a PAF aircraft are from late 2012/2013.

That's an interesting question really makes me think what planes aside from some J-8s in PLAAF stock can use the PL-11?

Funny enough must have been planned ages ago, found an old mock-up

Funny enough must have been planned ages ago, found an old mock-up

Well to be fair, the JF-17 was planned ages ago.... (At least relative to when it was produced)

Interesting though.

Yeah, it has been a very long development for this plane. Most Grumman pictures are dated 1987, funny to think if that was when design was frozen

I found a SAM version!

Yeah, it has been a very long development for this plane. Most Grumman pictures are dated 1987, funny to think if that was when design was frozen

 

I found a SAM version!

I wonder if that's in operational service anywhere, or just recently produced. :smilewink:

Would you like to provide more information to what you say? Yeah, 2012/2013 was the first time SD-10 was spotted on JF-17's carried by PAK.

Where is the source of your information?

Officially PAF has in use SD-10 from this autumn 2019. It is on the official page of the PAF.

How is used JF-17 in PAF. If you know chinese language ..

https://wxn.qq.com/cmsid/20190722A0QJ1L00

Im not entirely sure what you've been going on about, but the SD-10 (PL-12) is the weapon the JF-17 has been planned to be equipped with since it reached operational service with block I.

 

I think you may be confused with the PL-15 which has been trialed on block II (planned for III) and may see active service with block II due to PAK concerns about adversaries out-ranging the SD-10 (PL-12).

 

SD-10s were considered against the MBDA MICA in 2007

https://web.archive.org/web/20080225164219/http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw071129_1_n.shtml

 

And then pictures from 2013/2012 of PAK aircraft carrying SD-10 and presumably since even earlier during testing.

 

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2013/07/jf-17-armed-with-2-x-sd-10-bvraams.html

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2012/10/jf-17-spotted-with-pl-12sd-10-beyond.html

 

First operational squadron was established in 2010 with 14 aircraft and have been steadily increasing sense.

 

And a source that confirms it was the weapon to be used on JF-17 from 2009

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-begins-domestic-final-assembly-of-jf-17-329056/

Which also confirms talks of the MBDA MICA from the first source.

 

Edit- Additional source

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2012/11/jf-17-thunder-fighter-gets-airborne.html

Those were my sources as you said the JF-17 couldn't carry PL-12 (SD-10). Maybe PAK just got it in inventory recently, but its been developed/planned for the last 9 years easily.

Thanks. So no sources there about use SD-10 in last time in PAF. (Don't count introduce SD-10 this autumn in PAF)

Only a few non-dated photos, mostly without SD-10. This photos with SD-10 was from testing in Chengdu.

No direct information form PAF or from PAF pilots .. :)

Where is the source of your information?

Officially PAF has in use SD-10 from this autumn 2019. It is on the official page of the PAF.

Can you please share the link of PAF website that provided you with this info?

In case you are referring to Pakistan Defense / defense.pk page/website then let me assure you It is not is any way linked to Pakistan armed forces. It is a privately owed website and forum that shares defense news. You can find that on there FB page.

here is a documentary released in 2015 before paris air show.

same video on OFFICIAL PAF website:

http://paf.gov.pk/#/videos

Pakistan Air Force media wing recently created a YouTube page same documentary is available there:

At 10:00 it describes the weapons they carry on missions.

"On a typical air defense mission it's wing carry PL-5EII and SD-10 BVR.."

Thanks. So no sources there about use SD-10 in last time in PAF. (Don't count introduce SD-10 this autumn in PAF)

Only a few non-dated photos, mostly without SD-10. This photos with SD-10 was from testing in Chengdu.

No direct information form PAF or from PAF pilots .. :)

You act like it has to be in PAK for them to have data on it. If im quite honest, thats quite a weird stance IMO. They've gone to China before to get data on stuff they needed, I wouldn't see how its any different in this case.

And for the earlier case, yes those were in testing, but you made a blanket statement that JF-17 could not carry them, which I disproved (Edit- along with many others). Now, maybe PAK didn't have in inventory at the time, but your statement was not refined enough to reflect that stipulation if that makes sense.

And below, a post from their Facebook, showing they're not only getting their information from just Pakistan.

It would make sense for a late SD-10 introduction however. The first two JF-17 squadrons, the Black Spiders and the Black Panthers, were ground attack squadrons transitioning from A-5s

Can you please share the link of PAF website that provided you with this info?

Is in this thread if you read it ..