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Take Off in the Bf 109K-4


iFoxRomeo

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After crashing and skidding all over the place on take off with the toe brake corrections method, I went awww f*** it and advanced throttle fast with full right rudder.. No trim, no flaps. I should be a hole in the ground but it was the easiest take off ever :| Not sure if that should happen.

Are you sure you didn't tiptoe on the right wheelbrake a bit at least?

And stick to the right?

At the beginning of the run, at low speed, the Bf-109 rudder has practically no effect (unlike the one on the FW-109).

LeCuvier

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Are you sure you didn't tiptoe on the right wheelbrake a bit at least?

And stick to the right?

At the beginning of the run, at low speed, the Bf-109 rudder has practically no effect (unlike the one on the FW-109).

 

That's the thing.. I didn't. Just full right rudder and when finally rudder has effect I ease up on it and can do slight corrections with stick, because I already have enough speed for that. Compared to the toebreaks where I was skidding all over the place.

 

I'd expect to end up in the mud because of the torque if I did that in the real plane...

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What was the wind speed and direction on takeoff? And yes you can avoid going full right stick on takeoff, as long as you apply right stick gradually as your speed increases, and you use your rudder pedals judiciously. (Tail wheel locked in place of course)

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That's the thing.. I didn't. Just full right rudder and when finally rudder has effect

I'd expect to end up in the mud because of the torque if I did that in the real plane...

That is basically the misconception.

The Rudder is effective from the start, if you advance the throttle quickly.

The propeller creates enough slipstream to counter the torque with right rudder.

 

As long as you do not push full throttle etc. you just keep full right rudder from the start, ease it to the center gradually when over 90-100km/h together with centering the stick from full aft and counter crosswind with a bit of aileron.

 

When the tail lifts keep here going until she flies herself of the runway and push(!) the nose a little bit if necessary to keep her strait and parallel to the runway. Do not pull(!) or she slows down until torque overwhelms her...

Raise the gears and when fast enough, climb.

Shagrat

 

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That is basically the misconception.

The Rudder is effective from the start, if you advance the throttle quickly.

The propeller creates enough slipstream to counter the torque with right rudder.

 

As long as you do not push full throttle etc. you just keep full right rudder from the start, ease it to the center gradually when over 90-100km/h together with centering the stick from full aft and counter crosswind with a bit of aileron.

 

When the tail lifts keep here going until she flies herself of the runway and push(!) the nose a little bit if necessary to keep her strait and parallel to the runway. Do not pull(!) or she slows down until torque overwhelms her...

Raise the gears and when fast enough, climb.

 

Hi shagrat,

 

+1

 

my boys and me do it the same way, no problems lift off nice and stady.

Auto prop on, slowly increase to ATA1.35, hold the stick back, full right rudder, little right brake till she has reach speed to hold here straigt with rudder. At 100 - 110 km/H center the stick and let here climb hereself out.

Gear in, flaps in ATA 1.25. Trimm to +2 or less, depents on the pilot.

 

regards

 

Little_D

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Hi shagrat,

 

+1

 

my boys and me do it the same way, no problems lift off nice and stady.

Auto prop on, slowly increase to ATA1.35, hold the stick back, full right rudder, little right brake till she has reach speed to hold here straigt with rudder. At 100 - 110 km/H center the stick and let here climb hereself out.

Gear in, flaps in ATA 1.25. Trimm to +2 or less, depents on the pilot.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

That's pretty similar but pretty much I was able to advance throttle to 100% (no WEP) within 1 sec while full right rudder, no flaps, no trim and take off easier than ever before :|

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  • 9 months later...

my boys and me do it the same way, no problems lift off nice and stady.

Auto prop on, slowly increase to ATA1.35, hold the stick back, full right rudder, little right brake till she has reach speed to hold here straigt with rudder. At 100 - 110 km/H center the stick and let here climb hereself out.

Gear in, flaps in ATA 1.25. Trimm to +2 or less, depents on the pilot.

 

Old thread, I know, but I've been trying these exact procedures trying to improve my take-offs. I've seen Little_D's videos, so I know that his take-offs are really smooth. I am taking off-okay, but it is still really wobbly and quite a struggle to get it level and stable as I go airborne.

 

What I am wondering, is whether there are any changes being made to the ground-trim. What I mean by that, is that in the settings (outside of the mission) you can select the special settings for the Bf 109 and then set the aileron and rudder trim tabs.

 

What sorts of values are pilots using there?

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  • 1 year later...

S!

 

Going to try the settings that Finnish pilots used on G-2 and G-6 for take off. In short: Trim to +1, flaps 20deg, lock tail wheel, radiators open. Steadily apply 1.30ata and pull stick back to keep the tailwheel on ground. Plane swings first mildly to right then to left. Counter with right rudder and brakes if needed. At speed around 100-120km/h lift the tail and plane flies off the ground with a gentle pull. Gear in, flaps up, radiator to Auto and electric fuel pump off.

 

There was no mention of wobble or tendency to nose up. Plane flew straight off the field.

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  • 4 months later...
S!

 

Going to try the settings that Finnish pilots used on G-2 and G-6 for take off. In short: Trim to +1, flaps 20deg, lock tail wheel, radiators open. Steadily apply 1.30ata and pull stick back to keep the tailwheel on ground. Plane swings first mildly to right then to left. Counter with right rudder and brakes if needed. At speed around 100-120km/h lift the tail and plane flies off the ground with a gentle pull. Gear in, flaps up, radiator to Auto and electric fuel pump off.

 

There was no mention of wobble or tendency to nose up. Plane flew straight off the field.

 

Also remember, the K4 has more power and different prop so that may not apply as much as it had before. Though I imagine it shouldn't be too far in difference.

 

I forget where, which book it had been, but one of the top German aces said something along the lines of "using full right rudder, some brake and pushing the power up quite rapidly so that the rudder became effective and you did not go off the runway". Not sure who it was exactly, but I'll let you know if I find it again.

 

But thats how I do it in DCS and it works pretty well.

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..."using full right rudder, some brake and pushing the power up quite rapidly so that the rudder became effective and you did not go off the runway"...
that's how I do it too. Very little brake though (depends on cross-wind maybe) and I use maximum power until my wheels are up.

LeCuvier

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  • 3 months later...

Hi folks,

 

I´m using the VKB-Sim T-Rudder-pedals (no toe brakes).

 

Because of that - despite intensive training - I simply cannot manage to handle the BF-109 properly during takeoff. I use two buttons on the Hotas as toe brakes - but it doesn't work really well - I can't work with the brakes intuitive or in a controlled way.

I'm now thinking about buying pedals with integrated toe brakes - basically only for the BF-109 (and perhaps some more warbirds in the future). Does that make sense, does that represent a massive improvement in terms of handling?

(Background: I am actually quite experienced with flight simulation, but the BF-109 kicks my ass)

Best regards

Jörg

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Hi folks,

 

I´m using the VKB-Sim T-Rudder-pedals (no toe brakes).

 

Because of that - despite intensive training - I simply cannot manage to handle the BF-109 properly during takeoff. I use two buttons on the Hotas as toe brakes - but it doesn't work really well - I can't work with the brakes intuitive or in a controlled way.

I'm now thinking about buying pedals with integrated toe brakes - basically only for the BF-109 (and perhaps some more warbirds in the future). Does that make sense, does that represent a massive improvement in terms of handling?

(Background: I am actually quite experienced with flight simulation, but the BF-109 kicks my ass)

I use the toe brakes on my MFG pedals for navigating on the ground, and to a much lesser extent during the take-off run. In the Bf-109 though I have to use the toe brakes at the very beginning of the take-off run because the rudder is so small and needs more speed for being effective. I cannot even imagine using buttons on the stick or throttle for activating toe brakes.

LeCuvier

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Hmmmmm. How are you taking off currently?

 

I only need small taps of right brake, and mostly at the start of the takeoff roll, and I takeoff in probably the worst way possible: No tailwheel lock, 1,8 Ata, with flaps etc.

 

Maybe make sure you are taking off with the tailwheel lock on, use only 1,3-1,45 Ata. Push the rudder to full right lock, then add power relatively quickly. Keep the rudder full right until the nose starts to swing right, even then only let off a little bit, and immediately give full right rudder again.

 

Otherwise I have heard of people using techniques where they keep some amount of constant right rudder, but use more or less power to manage the nose swinging back and forth. Sometimes a little left stick helps at high speed to keep the nose straight as well.

9./JG27

 

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Hmmmmm. How are you taking off currently?

 

At the moment - after even more practice in the last hours since I wrote my post - I'm getting pretty good at it. Basically, I do it the way you say. A lot of power right from the beginning, briefly tap the right toe brake (button) to align the aircraft, full right rudder until about 100 km/h, from this speed on I find the behaviour intuitive (the tendency to roll hard left after takeoff is easy to control once one knows it).

 

So the takeoff seems to work even without pedals with toe brakes.

 

BUT: definitely not the landing. After the touchdown - as soon as the effect of the rudder fades off - it is almost impossible for me to keep the machine on track without precision toe braking and I suppose, thats the point where I need new pedals anyway. Buttons are far too imprecise for this. Landing itself is not a problem - but below 100 km/h things get ugly every time.

Best regards

Jörg

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Yes I agree that brakes are mostly needed much more for landing. I usually use alternating brake left and right to keep it balanced. Probably some back stick to add downpressure to the tailwheel wouldnt hurt either, wont do much at low speed though.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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Hi folks,

 

I´m using the VKB-Sim T-Rudder-pedals (no toe brakes).

 

Because of that - despite intensive training - I simply cannot manage to handle the BF-109 properly during takeoff. I use two buttons on the Hotas as toe brakes - but it doesn't work really well - I can't work with the brakes intuitive or in a controlled way.

I'm now thinking about buying pedals with integrated toe brakes - basically only for the BF-109 (and perhaps some more warbirds in the future). Does that make sense, does that represent a massive improvement in terms of handling?

(Background: I am actually quite experienced with flight simulation, but the BF-109 kicks my ass)

 

Controlling the 109 during the initial steps of the take-off without axis controlled brakes is a very difficult task and I don't know if it is even possible at all. The 109 has a small rudder that it doesn't have any authority until you gain some speed so brakes have to be used in order to counteract the brutal torque effect the engine puts on the plane. However, just small brake actuation is needed which is not possible to do in your case as a button will automatically apply 100% brakes.

 

With pedal brakes you pull the stick a bit back and a bit right, apply around 50% right rudder, and I think about 15-20% right brake. Start throttling slowly and as soon as you gain some speed and feel the plane going right, slowly release the brakes and start the rudder dance to keep the plane straight in the runway.

 

In your case, I would try moving the throttle even slower, gain speed without much engine power in order to decrease the torque effect, and then as soon as you have rudder authority you will be fine. Give small taps to your brakes, don't keep the button pushed.


Edited by Al-Azraq

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Controlling the 109 during the initial steps of the take-off without axis controlled brakes is a very difficult task and I don't know if it is even possible at all. The 109 has a small rudder that it doesn't have any authority until you gain some speed so brakes have to be used in order to counteract the brutal torque effect the engine puts on the plane. However, just small brake actuation is needed which is not possible to do in your case as a button will automatically apply 100% brakes.

 

With pedal brakes you pull the stick a bit back and a bit right, apply around 50% right rudder, and I think about 15-20% right brake. Start throttling slowly and as soon as you gain some speed and feel the plane going right, slowly release the brakes and start the rudder dance to keep the plane straight in the runway.

 

In your case, I would try moving the throttle even slower, gain speed without much engine power in order to decrease the torque effect, and then as soon as you have rudder authority you will be fine. Give small taps to your brakes, don't keep the button pushed.

 

50% rudder and constant right wheel braking ?? Very weird way for bf 109 take off, why not 100% right rudder and brakes if required ?

I use instant throttle move to about 1.0 ATA then advance throttle more to 1.4 ata, or i advance throttle to 1.4 ATA in one smooth move takes 2-3 seconds to do it. Then i tap right brake to keep initial roll straight. After couple of seconds Rudder become sufficient to steer plane .

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^ I do it in a similar way too. With full right rudder, throttling up slowly to 1.0'ish just taxiing faster and faster, then throttling up smoothly to 1.35-1.4. No brake input required whatsoever, because by the time I get to 1.4 the rudder is already effective enough.

 

Granted, if there's an unfavourable crosswind component, I do need to use some brake every now and then, otherwise - nope.

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50% rudder and constant right wheel braking ?? Very weird way for bf 109 take off, why not 100% right rudder and brakes if required ?

I use instant throttle move to about 1.0 ATA then advance throttle more to 1.4 ata, or i advance throttle to 1.4 ATA in one smooth move takes 2-3 seconds to do it. Then i tap right brake to keep initial roll straight. After couple of seconds Rudder become sufficient to steer plane .

 

I just do what I saw recommended. Brakes are needed because rudder has no authority in the initial roll and if I hit 100% rudder as soon as it gets authority it pushes me to the right too much. I found out that this works best for me. I just keep the brake for 4-5 seconds, nothing more.

 

However, I will try your way tomorrow!

i7 12700KF | MSI Z690 A-PRO | Corsair Vengeance 2x16 gb @ 3200 Mhz | RTX 3070 Ti FE | Acer XB271HU 1440P 144HZ | Virpil T-50 CM throttle | Virpil WarBRD Base + MongoosT-50 CM2 Grip | MFG Crosswind | TrackIR 5 | HP Reverb G2

Bf 109 K-4 | Fw 190 A-8 | Spitfire LF Mk. IX | P-51D | Fw 190 D-9 | P-47D | Mosquito FB VI | F/A 18C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | MiG-15bis | MiG-21bis | M-2000C | A-10C | AJS-37 Viggen | UH-1H | Ka-50 | Mi-24P | C-101 | Flaming Cliffs 3

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Controlling the 109 during the initial steps of the take-off without axis controlled brakes is a very difficult task and I don't know if it is even possible at all. The 109 has a small rudder that it doesn't have any authority until you gain some speed so brakes have to be used in order to counteract the brutal torque effect the engine puts on the plane. However, just small brake actuation is needed which is not possible to do in your case as a button will automatically apply 100% brakes.

 

With pedal brakes you pull the stick a bit back and a bit right, apply around 50% right rudder, and I think about 15-20% right brake. Start throttling slowly and as soon as you gain some speed and feel the plane going right, slowly release the brakes and start the rudder dance to keep the plane straight in the runway.

 

In your case, I would try moving the throttle even slower, gain speed without much engine power in order to decrease the torque effect, and then as soon as you have rudder authority you will be fine. Give small taps to your brakes, don't keep the button pushed.

 

 

I'm not aware of any taildragger where the rudder (in the aerodynamic sense) has enough authority until you gain a decent amount of speed. Maybe cubs do since they are so light, but even with a Citabria you need speed for the rudder (aerodynamically to be of any use). The main thing is whether you have a steerable tailwheel or not for the rudder pedals to be effective before this point.

 

For the 109, I generally take the approach (I read it somewhere, can't remember where or I would link) 100% right rudder, push the throttle up relatively quickly, and use the brake to steer until rudder becomes effective. As the sooner you have a lot of air moving over the tail the better. I've also found if you less authoritative with the throttle, push it up slowly, you can get into a dangerous area where your moving quite quickly but don't have enough rudder authority and the brakes can become overpowered by inertia. But there are multiple ways these aircraft were taken off in the war, find what works best for you.

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I'm not aware of any taildragger where the rudder (in the aerodynamic sense) has enough authority until you gain a decent amount of speed. Maybe cubs do since they are so light, but even with a Citabria you need speed for the rudder (aerodynamically to be of any use). The main thing is whether you have a steerable tailwheel or not for the rudder pedals to be effective before this point.

 

For the 109, I generally take the approach (I read it somewhere, can't remember where or I would link) 100% right rudder, push the throttle up relatively quickly, and use the brake to steer until rudder becomes effective. As the sooner you have a lot of air moving over the tail the better. I've also found if you less authoritative with the throttle, push it up slowly, you can get into a dangerous area where your moving quite quickly but don't have enough rudder authority and the brakes can become overpowered by inertia. But there are multiple ways these aircraft were taken off in the war, find what works best for you.

 

I know one, Spitfire. You can just slam throttle to 18lbs boost and take off w/o problems using only rudder to control plane, no tail wheel lock.

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Controlling the 109 during the initial steps of the take-off without axis controlled brakes is a very difficult task and I don't know if it is even possible at all. The 109 has a small rudder that it doesn't have any authority until you gain some speed so brakes have to be used in order to counteract the brutal torque effect the engine puts on the plane. However, just small brake actuation is needed which is not possible to do in your case as a button will automatically apply 100% brakes. [snip]

Incorrect on the bold part. DCS applies it progressively, if very quickly. You can confirm that yourself with the control indicator.

 

With that known, you really don't need axis controlled brakes. Tapping or very briefly holding a button/key works fine during initial roll out.


Edited by Buzzles
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Incorrect on the bold part. DCS applies it progressively, if very quickly. You can confirm that yourself with the control indicator.

 

With that known, you really don't need axis controlled brakes. Tapping or very briefly holding a button/key works fine during initial roll out.

 

Agree, buttons apply brakes slowly, which is the why take off w/o axis brakes is difficulty.

I tap my brakes very rapidly, im not holding then for long time, just tap to 100% as fast as possible and release it as fas as possible.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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