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Old 06-21-2018, 03:13 PM   #41
PeaceSells
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I'm sorry, no matter from what angle you look at it, mixing realistic sims with simplified sims makes no sense, no point trying to sugar coat this.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:00 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
Not to mention continuous perfect IFF on all contacts automatically done by FC3 radar, and the freedom to manouver however you want without this causing your radar to lose lock.
You mean similar to the Mirage then.

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Having commands assigned to your HOTAs that aren't on the real jet's HOTAS isn't realistic.
Yet clicking them on a screen using a mouse is what real pilots do?
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Combat readiness and turnaround time are extremely important in real war.
Mirage and Harrier have very quick turn around times plus you can rearm with engines spooled something FC aircraft can't.


So basically FC is simplified in the combat arena because it has automatic IFF. Sorry you need to sell it more.

Last edited by Frostie; 06-21-2018 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by SVTONY View Post

Then there is the combat issue. FC level aircraft are weapons safety off, weapons armed and selected and awaiting target lock and launch at the press of the "radar on command". This is in contrast to individually selecting the weapons page, picking the appropriate weapon, turning the radar on, going to the radar page, turning weapons safety off, scanning for the target, locking the target and launching when appropriate. As you can see the latter is a significantly more drawn out process than if it was in an FC level aircraft and lowers situational awareness in combat as well.
You do know that the F/A-18 has weapon select buttons that sets up everything for that weapon. You're trying to make it sound so convoluted when in actual fact you do the exact same process as you do in an F-15 but with the added benefit of 'fencing in' properly.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:44 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Frostie View Post
You mean similar to the Mirage then.


Yet clicking them on a screen using a mouse is what real pilots do?

Mirage and Harrier have very quick turn around times plus you can rearm with engines spooled something FC aircraft can't.


So basically FC is simplified in the combat arena because it has automatic IFF. Sorry you need to sell it more.

Not exactly. I don't have the Mirage, but I do know it's IFF not only isn't automatic but also only lasts a few seconds after pressing it. Looking at the features individually makes it sound like the difference is small but the differences add up. And Mirage and Harrier aren't the only full fidelity modules. You are advocating in favor of mixing realism planes with simplified ones and I'm the one trying to sell it?
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:03 PM   #45
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More choice is better than less.

A larger customer base is better for ED.

For the MP minority, including myself, the squads, mission designers, and server providers will sort out for themselves what they do, and don't want to use. Just like they do right now.
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:03 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
Not to mention continuous perfect IFF on all contacts automatically done by FC3 radar, and the freedom to manouver however you want without this causing your radar to lose lock.
... which real aircraft do just fine. I don't know where you get this 'maneuver however you want' thing as being unrealistic - real pilots need to maneuver their aircraft 'however they want'. Those antennas move faster than you can rate and I expect the radar gimbal is nicely balanced for roll control also.

Continuous IFF is also a thing, like it or not. How and why it is used in this mode is beyond my knowledge but the point is, it's a very clear capability in the real radar.
As for IFF being perfect, that's not down to FCanything, it's the game itself. Further, there's no reason to expect EID to be failing all over the place for aircraft equipped and intended to use that EID effectively.
In game, the only relevant thing is whether you have IFF capability or not. Reprentations of IFF aren't relevant - your designated target reports as friendly or not, and that's all.

Quote:
Having commands assigned to your HOTAs that aren't on the real jet's HOTAS isn't realistic.
Neither is your mouse.

Quote:
Combat readiness and turnaround time are extremely important in real war.
How important are they in your virtual cockpit?

Quote:
A real combat mission isn't a script where everything goes as the scripter wrote. You should expect having to switch from A2G to A2A, switch weapons, modes, etc., on the fly.
... why? Did someone not do their job?

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Most people in DCS tend to play scripted missions against AI, but something closer to real life missions can only be achieved in PvP.
Actually, closer to real life missions is achieved more often with AI. For PvP you need well trained individuals on both sides willing to play their role correctly. The AI isn't great, but people can easily be even more random.

Here's what I'll give you:

1) You can scramble an FC jet to 'full functionality' much faster, so it works a bit better in airquake ( ... but you can scramble full fi modules almost as fast as well ) ... then again, why is it that you don't have your 10min alert of incoming so you can do your alert 5 mission?

2) You might forget to flip your master arm on. Not an issue in FC3 jets (though easily fixed in fact) ... so yes, you might up pulling the trigger and shooting nothing. You're right, at this point FC level jet pilots will not experience that 'zomg wtf' moment ... does it really happen to you or your (full fi) opponents often enough to honestly be a thing?

Probably in A2G contests full fi modules will be clear winners if anything more than CCIP/CCRP needs to be used. Even if it is just CCIP/CCRP, sheer navigation/targeting capability is superior.

Finally, you can start any one of these full fi modules hotpit and bob's your uncle, 'balance' restored.
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Last edited by GGTharos; 06-21-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:22 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Actually, closer to real life missions is achieved more often with AI. For PvP you need well trained individuals on both sides willing to play their role correctly. The AI isn't great, but people can easily be even more random.
Well said! That's why well scripted missions (and campaigns) are so enjoyable in SP (I usually get a real sense of 'being there'), and feeling like being a part of something larger - conveyed by the mission/campaign structure, briefings, voice-overs, AI units, etc.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:15 PM   #48
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Regarding the HOTAS
THE ***ONLY*** AIRCRAFT WITH REPLICA HOTAS AVAILABLE IS A-10. If you are flying ANYTHING else, you are already doing this very thing. And aircraft designers are restricted by technology, space, etc. They don't make things hard on themselves deliberately. If you're not using a 1 to 1 scale replica cockpit of the aircraft you're flying, you are already making massive compromises to 'realism'. Clicking around in the cockpit during combat is stupid. Full stop. It is not 'realistic'.

Realism is having certain functions available and using them, not using a mouse to clumsily click around in the game. Whether you were reaching forward to flick a switch, or pushing a button on your keyboard, end result is literally the same. If you choose to disadvantage yourself by being foolish and stubborn that's a personal choice, and nobody else's problem. I guarantee, most the guys you're apt to be fighting in moshpit PvP are doing the same thing I am, so you're still 'disadvantaged' because you're deliberately choosing a clumsy interface method.

A server operator can combine the two easily by giving the full sim aircraft hot starts. Don't want a hot start? Don't join moshpit Air Quake servers.

Rando moshpit servers do not provide a 'more realistic experience' because you have isolated groups of random dillweeds running around doing god knows what in a completely uncoordinated fashion. You've got an A-10 doing ground attacks here, 40 miles away a noob is asking in chat how to equip weapons, over here a guy is doing barrel rolls over the Vegas strip, two guys from a clan are flying F-15s together, but only one of them is on comms because the other guy's wife is asleep. Oh and realistic air defenses, troop arrangements, or interceptors are completely nonexistent because the average desk jockey can't handle them. Yeah, such realism, much wow, it almost triggers PTSD in 'Nam vets /sarcasm
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Last edited by zhukov032186; 06-22-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
... which real aircraft do just fine. I don't know where you get this 'maneuver however you want' thing as being unrealistic - real pilots need to maneuver their aircraft 'however they want'. Those antennas move faster than you can rate and I expect the radar gimbal is nicely balanced for roll control also.
I've never flown these aircraft IRL, I'm basing this on what I've read from players of the early access Hornet. They said that maneuvering too hard their Hornet caused their radar to drop lock. This might be wrong, I don't know actually, but I wouldn't be surprised it it was true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Continuous IFF is also a thing, like it or not. How and why it is used in this mode is beyond my knowledge but the point is, it's a very clear capability in the real radar.
Real radar of which aircraft? Not the Mirage. I don't kow how it is in the real F-18 (have to wait ED implement it), F-15 or Su-27. Saying it's a "capability in the real radar" without mentioning which DCS aircraft do have it doesn't mean much...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
In game, the only relevant thing is whether you have IFF capability or not. Reprentations of IFF aren't relevant - your designated target reports as friendly or not, and that's all.
??
If you make mistakes setting up your IFF it's not going to work properly, just like setting up your laser, radio, bomb parameters, etc. How can you say it's not relevant, it's what high fidelity is about. You might not get fully modelled IFF systems in-game because they're usually classified, not because they aren't relevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Neither is your mouse.
As Zhukov said before, the most realistic thing is to use your keyboard.

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Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
How important are they in your virtual cockpit?
If you're using your virtual cockpit in virtual combat, it's as important as in real cockpit in real combat? Or I didn't understand your question?

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Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
... why? Did someone not do their job?
The guy whose responsability is to control the enemies actions according to what you have planned sometimes forgets to do his job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Actually, closer to real life missions is achieved more often with AI. For PvP you need well trained individuals on both sides willing to play their role correctly. The AI isn't great, but people can easily be even more random.
PvP against people that know how to play the sim is the only way to get something closer to realism. Yes, if you're talking about clueless players, AI can be more realistic than that, but DCS AI many times even manages to be less realistic than those. That's why I say the only way to get closer to realism is PvP.

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Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Finally, you can start any one of these full fi modules hotpit and bob's your uncle, 'balance' restored.
A client doesn't choose how he wants to start his jet in MP, that's up to the mission designer... I agree it's not ultimately the module's fault but the designer's fault... but still...
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Old 06-22-2018, 06:48 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by lazduc View Post
Disadvantages...how about those who cannot afford all the bells and whistles and are flying with 20.00 joysticks?
Good HOTAS doesn't make a good pilot. I can assure you a veteran playing with sth like Thrustmaster USB (found priced for $18) can abslolutely dominate any average player with fancy HOTAS, rudders and DIY pits any day.
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