AI ignores ROE setting (DCS World 1.2.2.7570)

I can't get AI aircraft to adhere to ROE settings in DCS World 1.2.2.7570. No matter whether I set the ROE to Return Fire or Weapons Hold, the two CAP flights in the .miz below engage and then launch missiles as soon as they detect each other. I even tried setting ROE as first priority (priority 0 at the initial position waypoint), but that doesn't fix the problem. Since it's an option and not a Task or Enroute Task, if I understood the GUI manual correctly, task priority shouldn't be an issue anyway.

Note that in the .miz I attached, I deleted the standard CAP enroute task and replaced it with a Search Then Engage enroute task. That didn't fix the issue either.

I saw a few posts from late last year from people who seemed to have the same problem, and I didn't saw a fix in the preliminary patch notes for 1.2.3. That's why I started this thread.

Can anyone confirm the ROE option is broken, or is it an (unlikely) case of PEBCAK?

ROE_broken.miz

I might be wrong but even with ROE set they will still defend themselves.

 

In the past if I wanted to get a carrier to hold fire I would set it AI off in the triggers

Well, I know that in the real world even a Weapons Hold order allows one to fire in self-defense. The 1989 Gulf of Sidra incident springs to mind, in which, as I understand from the well-known audio recording, the two Tomcat crews are never explicitly ordered Weapons Free. But you'd think that in the sim, the AI would adhere to the ROE more strictly, to allow for better control over their behavior. Besides, I don't remember having trouble with the ROE option before.

"Search than engage" seems to override your "Weapon hold".

"Search than engage" seems to override your "Weapon hold".

Which is strange because Search Then Engage is a Enrounte Task and the Weapons Hold ROE is an Option. I'm quoting the GUI manual here, page 120:

"Commands and Options are executed instantaneously according to the order in the actions list or priority setting."

So if I understand this right, they are executed in order without conflicting with Tasks or Enroute Tasks.

I'm not sure if this specific issue is a bug or not, but there are probably other ways to do what you're after. Here is a modification of your mission, where the Flankers break to engage the F-15 only when those cross the shoreline, while the F-15s ignore the threat entirely and just keep flying straight and level (just to demonstrate that it's possible). After the shoot down, the Flankers return to their CAP station. I used some Triggered Actions in there.

ROE_broken.miz

While I agree with you that putting the Flankers down without an Enroute Task and switching them to Search Then Engage In Zone or something similar when the enemy enters a trigger zone is a workaround of sorts, I would prefer the ROE Option working as intended. I specifically want a CAP flight in a mission I'm working on to return fire only when they are fired upon, and it seems that's not possible at the moment.

Thanks for your time, though.

Are you sure? It seems to work without the added combat task. Here is the same mission but with the F-15s just set for Fighter Sweep and the Flankers just orbiting until fired upon. I'm not sure if you have more specific design for the mission that would require additional tasking options, but at this simple level, it seems to work as intended.

ROE_broken.miz

To get back to you on this issue, EvilBivol-1, after a little more testing it still seems to me that aircraft totally ignore the ROE setting. No matter whether I set the Eagles to Return Fire or even Weapons Hold, they still perform their Fighter Sweep enroute task and start launching missiles the moment they get in range of the Flankers. Same deal for the Flankers, which will ignore any ROE I set for them in favor of their Enroute Tasks (either CAP or Search Then Engage).

Now, your version of the test mission has the Flankers withou any Enroute Tasks at all. They only have an Orbit Task. However, even without an offensive Enroute Task the Flankers will still defend themselves. Just set the Flankers to ROE Weapons Hold and check it out—they'll still fire their missiles in self-defense. I didn't know they'd do that; I was under the impression that a "Nothing" Enroute Task had the AI go defensive only when attacked. I guess I can use this AI behavior for the mission idea I had, but it's still not ideal.

The thing is, as far as ground units are concerned, the ROE Option works exactly like you would expect! I placed two enemy armored units facing each other, set the ROE to Return Fire, and both units sit there happily until I manually take control and open fire. Only then does the enemy unit return fire. So the ROE Option is not entirely broken as I reported earlier; it just doesn't work for aircraft.

is this still an issue?

I am trying to create a mission and instead of killing a few SAMs and getting out, the A10C flight and the KA 50 flight both just fly in circles trying to take everything in sight out.

Aside from being unrealistic and stupid, it means there is no mission left for the player.

Remove their default CAS tasks and give them either search then engage and filter out the types of targets you don't want them to attack or outright give them "Attack Group" commands. Either should do the trick.

AI with their default CAS task + whatever else will attack any ground target they see. By removing the CAS task and using Search and engage or attack group you can have a little more control over the AI actions.

Thanks Grimes :-)

Is this a workaround to a bug or is this ROE behaviour by design?

A mixture of both, I think.

I don't know how you are using ROE to change behavior of AI, and honestly I haven't tried changing AI ROE much lately aside from changing it for ground vehicles via scripting. I'll have to test it for aircraft.

The thing about aircraft tasking is that the default tasks like CAS, CAP, and SEAD are meant to be an easy way to get a desired result of AI attacking ground targets, aircraft, or SAMS. You just have to place them in a mission, give em weapons, and it will work. Its a nice usability feature, as I think if you had to setup an option to attack there would be dozens of forum posts asking why AI won't attack. With these tasks if the AI have weapons, they will try to kill their targets. You can mitigate AI from completing a mission or destroying to many targets by giving them less ammo or by changing the tasks to something more specific as I described in my post above.

I have to admit, I didn't really understand what the CAS, CAP etc did in DCSW - just understood what the roles meant.

From what you are saying, when you want to get the AI to something very specific, it is best not to assign a role, just assign the specific tasks.

as of 2015, and the current beta version of DCS 1.2.16.xxx , the ROE 'return fire' option does not work on AI units. (the AI units would engage enemy units as soon as they detect them etc)

i have set ROE 'return fire' option on EVERY WPT for a pair of F-15C , they have engaged and shot down a presumed 'enemy' aircraft they have found on their way.

(in this case , the 'other' aircraft i was flying myself (a su27) and i was just flying there nearby without even doing any aggressive maneuvers or trying to shoot at them

if there is such an option, then why it doesn't work properly fo its intended purpose? if so, it should be then notified to us as WIP/inop.

the other suggested options to circumvent this event are inappropriate and only this sole ROE 'return fire' should properly work as it is intended.

this option is important to create realistic missions triggered by specific conditions and it is very unfortunate that it doesn't work.. :doh:

OR, i have it all wrong and because of lack of documentation and examples i can't make it work. :mad:

i have set ROE 'return fire' option on EVERY WPT for a pair of F-15C , they have engaged and shot down a presumed 'enemy' aircraft they have found on their way.

(in this case , the 'other' aircraft i was flying myself (a su27) and i was just flying there nearby without even doing any aggressive maneuvers or trying to shoot at them

Just tested it and it does work. I was able to force them to engage me by two means.

1. Shooting a missile at them. Note if you shoot a missile at one of their friends they won't care. Also they don't seem to care if you lock them with your radar. But the moment you fire a missile at them they will react.

2. Getting close, approx 1km or less, to any flight member of their group causes them to engage you. I suspect that might be what is happening where they get close to enemy aircraft and deem that aircraft to be a threat.

2. Getting close, approx 1km or less, to any flight member of their group causes them to engage you. I suspect that might be what is happening where they get close to enemy aircraft and deem that aircraft to be a threat.

ahem well.. what i tried is to simply approach one of them from its six and get close for a fly by, that didn't work because one of the F-15 turned around and engaged me.

and that's really weird, because i haven't even used my radar neither fired at them anything.

i don't really understand why this ROE 'return fire' option does not force the AI to promptly react to only HOSTILE events such as when the weapons are being fired at them, -no matters how close is getting the presumed enemy aircraft?

because of this, this option doesn't really allow to create realistic missions to allow airspace intrusion interception and 'standoff' situations... :(

ahem well.. what i tried is to simply approach one of them from its six and get close for a fly by, that didn't work because one of the F-15 turned around and engaged me.

 

and that's really weird, because i haven't even used my radar neither fired at them anything.

 

i don't really understand why this ROE 'return fire' option does not force the AI to promptly react to only HOSTILE events such as when the weapons are being fired at them, -no matters how close is getting the presumed enemy aircraft?

 

because of this, this option doesn't really allow to create realistic missions to allow airspace intrusion interception and 'standoff' situations... :(

Sneaking up close at someone, with a loaded gun, aimed at the back of your head ... that is not a hostile action in your eyes? ;o)

Sneaking up close at someone, with a loaded gun, aimed at the back of your head ... that is not a hostile action in your eyes? ;o)

lol sure

but how they do IRL?, especially nowdays in the baltics, those numerous 'interception' incidents of nato vs russian aircraft?? they never shot at each other !

if the pilots of either side were acting as DCS AI, we would be probably at ww3 as of now :megalol:

The game is setup so that a state of war exists between red team and blue team. There is no default behavior with international air space and two sides testing the others response without actually shooting anything. As a result the Return Fire ROE is more of a means to reign in aggressive behavior or at least guarantee that one group is always going to be reacting to an action.

What you can do is get creative with triggers, options, or scripting to accomplish what you really want. For instance setting the AI to ROE Do Not fire and then switching it via triggered action or scripting when a given condition is met achieves the behavior that you want.

 

What you can do is get creative with triggers, options, or scripting to accomplish what you really want. For instance setting the AI to ROE Do Not fire and then switching it via triggered action or scripting when a given condition is met achieves the behavior that you want.

right, looks like that would be the approach to aim at in order to achieve what i have in mind