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Old 01-15-2020, 11:28 AM   #131
Arctander
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Originally Posted by Harlikwin View Post
I think one of the things they "could" do is be far more up-front on their webpage about estimated completion year. Then again this would likely drive off new players but its all about expectations management.
Agreed. If there was a clear timeframe then we can make choices with all the information needed.

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I'd say that both the F14 and the JF17 came out much more "done" than the F18 and Viper.
And that is likely the reason IMO that they are seen far more positively than the F18/F16. ED should really learn that lesson.

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the recent hornet/viper "fiasco" being the exception, not the rule.
It may be an 'exception' - but an 'exception' can become 'precedent' which I very much hope ED has realised would be a bad idea.

I am so glad that ED haven't in the 2020 roadmap teased another jet like they did with the Viper, I think ED HAVE to finish the Hornet AND Viper before they accept any money for a future fast jet to show that this was indeed an exception/mistake....
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:39 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Arctander View Post
And that is likely the reason IMO that they are seen far more positively than the F18/F16. ED should really learn that lesson.
I hope they don't! Because if they would, I would not be able to fly the Hornet and the Viper already as I can now. I would have to wait for their actual release and would miss a lot of fun that I'm now having with both modules since their respective EA releases.
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:03 PM   #133
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Let's let the ED guys do their work!
Most of ED's announcements for 2019 have been well done as announced.
There are many new projects for 2020 and I hope that most of these projects will be finalized as announced.
There is no such thing as a perfect world and there are always remarks and frustrations. Let's look 12 months from now before taking conclusions.

Personally I am waiting for the Mi-24 after years of announcements without seeing anything happen...
Mi-24 Hind released in 2020...Whatch out ED I am looking for you !
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by NineLine View Post
We try and read as much as possible, but we already stated our goal was to have the Hornet completed by the end of the year. 2.5 years is a reasonable time for the development of such a complex module, but if you don't/didnt enjoy the ride, by all means, please consider this if you take part in another Early Access, as has been said, its not for everyone.

eh..what can i say... you are right and i was wrong.
i supposed EA was "a thing for me" based on previous experiences, but looks like i was wrong.
i enjoyed EA the first months, lets say the first year at best.
new things to try, new things almost every update, there was a positive feeling.
now it cause to me more pain than joy, each time i try a serious mission i just see the problems or missing features and i really cant enjoy and have fun.
textures keeps flashing on the sea (i posted a topic under bugs about that, but noone answered me), many weapons just bug in the wrong possible moment (like harpoons not going to sea-skim height and get destroyed, harms missing a stationary target with radar still tracking me by 20 meters , JSOW not exploding even if properly set, bombing a train and look the explosion cause DCS crash to desktop ...ecc..) and after 300 miles of travel in the mission that is really frustrating, destroy immersion, and to me personally makes me just quit DCS and play something else just to try relax and forget the rage coming from playing DCS.
In the last year i mainly played DCS on online gun dogfights servers, even there i suffer from small problems , like the F18 "butter damage model" where 1 bullet to the body is lethal 90% of times, with plane shutting down , or losing a wing.
what make things worse is that every other plane is way stronger, planes like F15, F16, F14, M2000, JF17, su27, su33, mig29 ...even planes like mig19 and F5 are a lot stronger and can take more punishment than F18.... i'm no expert but makes no sense to me.

well to cut it short… seems i'm not for EA, at least in the way ED means it.
my bad , i did the mistake, i pay the consequences, its fine.
lesson learned...for sure i will never pay for another EA in DCS.
but with F18 … at this point that i have already pay for F18 EA… i would pay more for a finished product, otherwise my money already spent on F18 would have just been wasted.
this looks like a good solution for ED too… so keep updating products and killing bugs is not an "unpaid job" that noone want to do, but can be a "correctly retributed job", that is a fine deal to me and will encourage ED to keep updating theyr modules.
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:42 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by DLEGION View Post
but with F18 … at this point that i have already pay for F18 EA… i would pay more for a finished product, otherwise my money already spent on F18 would have just been wasted.
this looks like a good solution for ED too… so keep updating products and killing bugs is not an "unpaid job" that noone want to do, but can be a "correctly retributed job", that is a fine deal to me and will encourage ED to keep updating theyr modules.
I really want to reply to this in another way as this is the second time you've said this and it is still up, so is obviously deemed 'on topic', and this is a direct reply to you on the same topic (achieving the 2020 roadmap). I hope that mods leave this post untouched as I think a counterpoint is important and needs to be said.

Regarding your opinion that paying a second time for the F18 to deliver it to the required level of quality within the 2020 roadmap, you may see this as being an option because in your eyes it 'prevents' money you've spent being 'wasted'.

I however (and I'm sure many others would) see this as 'throwing good money after bad', and were they to do so I imagine that the backlash would be immediate and loud as it would indicate that ED were no longer an acceptable risk from the perspective of pre-ordering which would cause a liquidity crisis for them (given Nick Grey has admitted EA funds are a major plank of their business viability) causing an existential threat.

I would also say that in such a situation you would have absolutely no control over whether they 'ringfence' that 'extra' money you paid them for what you want them to do.

ED have stated publicly that they aim to complete both F18 and F16 this year so they have enough to complete both based on existing and future expected sales to new customers. At this point I absolutely expect them to focus on fulfilling that goal for the F18 (but likely not the F16 as I think that is too big a task, and pushing for both risks neither being accomplished. It is clear in my mind and from reading others comments where the focus should lie.)

Either way - offering a company to give them more money to complete a software product you have already paid the asked amount for would in my eyes be a dangerous precedent to set, enabling them (should they so chose) to keep coming back for more. If it has turned out that the price they set originally was not high enough to pay for the cost of developing it - then they would need to find another way to pay for that completion (in this specific case it seems to me they have accelerated the F16 release to share development costs inside the same time frame, plus likely the changes to the Supercarrier module content and discount method, both of which have caused their own controversies I will not go into).

Lastly - I am no lawyer, but I would expect that ANY company that has an owner/major shareholder based in the EU (TFC) and that charges £X for a product in the EU, and then comes back and says they want more money to complete or they will not deliver the promised content
would find themselves in trouble legally speaking .....

Therefore while I think it is most likely a moot point as it would be so patently poor practice that ED would never consider it, I do feel that the above points need to be made.

ED have stated their goal is to complete the F18 this year, and I will be watching with interest to see how serious they are about fulfilling that aim.

Last edited by Arctander; 01-15-2020 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:06 PM   #136
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heh… Arctander, i agree with all your points. and i mean… all of them.
you pinpointed exactly the problems...but the actual solution (using your words:
"they have accelerated the F16 release to share development costs inside the same time frame" )
is not a real solution in my opinion. F16 will have its own troubles and cost, and they'll need to rush another new module to solve the same problems.
i work hard to pay bills, and i'm not happy to waste money or pay two times for the same product,
but from a commercial point of view, right now that most people already own F18, keep working on it will just not bring more money...i'm just trying to suggest a way to make it profitable keep upgrading and debugging a product without do dirty things like "montly fee" or just delay until everyone forget it.
to be honest… i use a simple "HotasX" paid 59.90€ and use hatswitch to look around, but i know at least 10 person using an hotas warthog, many have rudders pedals, nearly everyone has track IR or VR… so from my point of view if they misdjudged the cost to create a module like F18, i can understand it. i'm not saying i'm happy eh. i just say i can understand. and we can put some money in the software too, that is the core afterall , not just in usb devices that we use to actually play the core software.
and i know where the "just wait" leads...i can be wrong, but personally i dont buy it.
so in the end… i agree with your points, but i see no other commercial solution except making it profitable, if it bring money, time and efforts will be put in it without fear to be unprofitable, and the development will go on fast, thats how i see it at least.
that said, obviously i would NOT pay for a promise of finish F18, i would only pay for the already finished version ready to test like it was for F14 in the free-trial weekend.
i dont get fooled twice, LOL !

Last edited by DLEGION; 01-15-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:38 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Arctander View Post
And that is likely the reason IMO that they are seen far more positively than the F18/F16. ED should really learn that lesson.
Both those modules we in development for a very long time, for the Hornet and Viper, you were given the OPTION to get in on development early... again totally optional, and if you wanted the same experience to the mentioned modules you could have easily skipped Early Access.

But then this has all been stated over and over. Sometimes these threads get a little groundhog day for me.
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