Mtv2 nervous

Hello to all off you!

I installed Mi8 mtv2 on my DCS world platform....must say that I m work on same helikopter....technics...electronics...navigation...and on test flights affter all!

when i wanted to take off i was shocked with the flight characteristics of the model which have nothing to do with the real model .... the 3 degrees collective raises the helicopter like on 5 degrees...the model is so nervous on hover mode and often go to VERTEX!!!!!

The flight model is pretty spot on. The difference between those you are feeling could be because of your HOTAS. Cyclic stick in mi8s are much longer in real life so it gives you much precise inputs.

And what are you reffering to as "3 degrees collective raise is like 5 degrees" Are you meaning main rotor Angle of attack or actual travel of collective.

have nothing to do with the real model

No, it's you. Practice some more and you'll get the hang of it.

You guys can test it in game. The aircraft should hover in ground effect at around 7 degrees of pitch as indicated on the gauge.

As a helicopter pilot the Mi-8 is probably my favorite flight model of the helicopters in DCS, however if the OP means vortex ring state/ settling with power when he says VERTEX it is way to easy to get into in Mi-8 and Huey. Not sure about the Ka-50 and its not modelled in the Gazelle.

@dinko.mihalic, @AlphaOneSix, I believe you, but if you don't have any technical documents which will confirm that...also it should be reported in bugs sections as new thread.

You get used to the VRS after a while, I tend not to hover when landing until I'm literally about to land, unless I've stopped into a hover for another reason. You can land rolling if it's too big an issue anyway. Haven't noticed the collective being particularily nervous, I use the RH warthog throttle( reversed ) for it. It is a pretty powerful helicopter...

If it was easy, then anyone could do it. Your first smooth approach and landing definitely feel earned.

should be reported in bugs sections

Eh... what exactly should be reported? I've no idea what you mean.

Eh... what exactly should be reported? I've no idea what you mean.

I guess danvac means this.

The aircraft should hover in ground effect at around 7 degrees of pitch as indicated on the gauge.

The aircraft should hover in ground effect at around 7 degrees of pitch as indicated on the gauge.

Wouldn't this depend on the helicopter load? I mean, how much fuel, cargo, stores, etc.. I suspect it might also depend on the altitude above sea level and the ambient air temperature. In any case, there seem to be some other factors that might contribute to the unexpected flight behaviour that the original post reports. It would be difficult to disentangle the problem if any experiments are not done under more controlled (or at least specified) conditions.

It should also be noted that the real MI-8 has a really heavy cyclic (damped?).

I believe the trim button releases most of the damping.... I think.... push trim... move... release?

could be wrong mind..

Hello to all off you!

 

 

I installed Mi8 mtv2 on my DCS world platform....must say that I m work on same helikopter....technics...electronics...navigation...and on test flights affter all!

when i wanted to take off i was shocked with the flight characteristics of the model which have nothing to do with the real model .... the 3 degrees collective raises the helicopter like on 5 degrees...the model is so nervous on hover mode and often go to VERTEX!!!!!

I know this is a little old but what control devices are you using?

The Mi-8 is really stable in pick up, hover flight and set down, and I can't say I have experienced VRS. (always fly with wind)

Have I fallen out of the sky, yes on numerous times. :D

The causes for me anyway.

Letting descent VS get away from me.

Manoeuvring into the same direction of the wind and suddenly loosing translational lift with out (pre)correcting for it.

Kinda like above not preempting for lose of TL on approach.

There are others but they have nothing to do with sensible flight. :music_whistling:

I could well be wrong but actual blade attack angle would vary according to weight and wind and air density. ?? Happy to learn more anyone. ;)

I suspect the blade angle might be a guide to (TOW) weight sort of like Huey transmission pressure??

And if your nervous wait till we get multi crew and I'll take you for a loop or 2,.. :P

A blade is a wing, so Q and wing loading affect it just like any other wing - you just have to consider how ithe air around it is moving in a hover. I'm terrible with TOW though - if I can't get it airborne with the engines at the top of yellow then obviously I need a rolling takeoff, ahem.

I still dump it into the ground occasionally, usually it's me doing things I really shouldn't be doing rather than anything like VRS.

@dinko.mihalic agree with you. I have about 200-300 FH behind controls and comparing RL Mi-171Sh to Mi-8MTV2 with similar T/O weight, the DCS model is much more nervous. Seems to me it is too lightweight or the main rotor produces too much t. On 3° of rotor pitch you can easily crash helicopter and starts to be really nevous. Also descending is much harder than IRL.

And try to turn the anti-ice system and look at the engine RPM. You will see really horrible RPM difference.

Of course she's nervous as hell with our crappy short throw controllers. Use curves as needed and she'll calm down just fine.

Of course she's nervous as hell with our crappy short throw controllers. Use curves as needed and she'll calm down just fine.

NO CURVES FOR HELICOPTER!

The problem is in the DCS input system somewhat.

When the Gazelle came out, I had IIRC a 35 cm extension on the G940 stick, and I could extremely easily fly anything there was with very accurate small movements. But I still needed to make very small movements, meaning that the stick top moved around 2 cm circle.

That that with a 12-bit Melexis MLX90333 sensors. It was great 11 years ago and even today has very comfortable grip and fairly good button layouts.

Now, it as well has fairly long throw in its axis. Not exactly like the CH Fighterstick, but very close to it.

Now these days I use the VKB Gunfighter Mk.II and MCG, with their 200 mm extension (and I have idea to buy their new 100mm extension if I can add it between base and that 200mm extension) and while the VKB stick is tall, the Virpil is even taller. So that extra 100mm would nicely add better movement.

So when the Gazelle came out, without any Input/Output adjustments in DCS axis, I was flying and maneuvering that helicopter with just 0.5-1 cm movement from top of the stick. And that helicopter very easily flipped around like crazy. After multiple flight modeling changes (that each was guaranteed to be correct) there is now - again coming a new one.

The Mi-8 is super easy to fly, it follows the inputs extremely nicely. and I have very large stick movements with the Mi-8. It is really difficult to get "out of flight".

I have never flied any other helicopter module than Mi-8 without extension. And without extension the G940 was crazy. The 35cm extension did big magical effect to the handling.

And when the UH-1H came out, it was following inputs like nothing. They are both with the Mi-8 very easily controlled helicopters. The UH-1H is more "on-the-ball" behavior, so the saying that Mi-8 is like "ocean liner" is more correct than not.

The KA-50 is still the best, and it was simply the most pleasant to fly with e FF stick because the trimmer worked like in the real thing. You trimmed and the stick locked to the trimmed position. You could take your hands off and let the helicopter fly just alone, performing all the required small inputs like needed in radar radar avoidance (radar altimeter) and perform all the needed turns in waypoints etc.

The KA-50 that I have flied with and without extension, there was big difference. So big that it was like going "this thing has its own mind" to "I can do other things like search targets and engage targets while AP flies". And the difference between normal joystick and FF joystick was like "Keep it steady, keep it steady" to "I can go to make some tee while this thing flies 20 minutes to combat zone".

But even today comparing all the DCS modules input systems with that 200 mm extension, aircrafts like F-18, F-14, F-16 etc has very "touchy" input. And some of those does not have a long stick in reality, and you have those well between your legs.

And then when you compare it to a Su-25 or Su-27 (or een MiG-29) sticks in real life, those you are waving around a lot and the aircraft performs just tiny tiny movements. I can't by any means perform any such rapid and large stick movements like you can see in the videos, as those aircrafts will throw themselves around and flip upside down.

But the Soviet fighters has long sticks. The sticks are almost at chest height and they are slightly further froward. so you have strong and clear handling. Why it is said that when you shake hands with the russian pilot, they squeeze your hand easily.

ED has implemented well the automatic input smoothing to many of the aircrafts, so your quick stick movements gets dampened and so on you are more free to do smaller corrections.

I believe that Mi-8 input/output is still one of the best, as you can fly it just by not thinking it. You are like "I want to turn left" and you turn to left, but if you start thinking "I want to turn left" then you are easily overdoing it.

NO CURVES FOR HELICOPTER!

If you can't retrofit an extension, then yes, curves. Curves work just fine for me, much better than a linear short throw JS would. And yes, I've tried both.

I don't use any with a VPC Warbrd base, not for anything except the Gazelle & some slight tweaking on the Huey anyway. I find the Mi-8 easy to anticipate & easy to squeeze around, has a stable feel unlike the Huey's feeling of balancing on a pole.

NO CURVES FOR HELICOPTER!

I totally agree with this and would strongly recommend it to anyone who wants to fly helicopters in DCS.

If you are finding it oversensitive, then reduce the linear response (i.e. the Y saturation), but do not inject a curve. Physically, the helicopter will be at different pitch angles as a function of the lateral velocity, so a curve is changing the response as a function of that velocity... thus making it a) unrealistic and b) a lot harder for you to establish any muscle memory (especially given the other lack of cues, as a result of being limited to a simulator).

I "went linear" back when I had a little Thrustmaster Hotas-X and since then with a CH-product fighterstick and now with a PFT-Puma. Same thing on all of them. Setting a linear response is best.

I am not a pilot on MI8 mtv although I am flying on an ultralight aircraft, but I am working as a technician on the Mi-8 Mtv-1 and Mi-171sh. 1. The problem with the Mi-8 in DCS is that the helicopter rises into the air while the main rotor's attack angle is 3 degrees. We test the governor system at 3 degrees of attack angle where the helicopter is still on the ground. 2. A real helicopter is much more inert and slower than the DCS model. I'm not saying the model is bad, but the differences are felt. It is as if the model was made according to a real helicopter weighing 4T rather than 11T. Please don't mind me, the model is impressively complex and made ... all praise for the team.

I totally agree

I totally don't and never will. Curves are a good solution if you trim properly, because reducing saturation will also reduce the stick's full control authority. Quoting myself from that other thread:

you can overcome most of the extreme end oversensitivity anyway if you trim properly, because your controller's physical centrepoint and the virtual cyclic's trimpoint will be identical when you release the button (they'll be "in the same place" so to speak)

So just trim the bugger. I've never had ANY problems whatsoever with muscle memory or anything, because I trim judiciously.

I am not a pilot on MI8 mtv although I am flying on an ultralight aircraft, but I am working as a technician on the Mi-8 Mtv-1 and Mi-171sh. 1. The problem with the Mi-8 in DCS is that the helicopter rises into the air while the main rotor's attack angle is 3 degrees. We test the governor system at 3 degrees of attack angle where the helicopter is still on the ground. 2. A real helicopter is much more inert and slower than the DCS model. I'm not saying the model is bad, but the differences are felt. It is as if the model was made according to a real helicopter weighing 4T rather than 11T. Please don't mind me, the model is impressively complex and made ... all praise for the team.

I wouldn't say it's that bad. It seems to be lifting at 3 degrees only in the most favourable conditions: sea level, cold weather, lightest config possible (very small amount of fuel, uninstalled all equipment options in mission editor). In normal config, warmer weather and with usual amount of fuel, it needs 5 degrees and above. I agree it seems to be very nimble though, but I've never flown aboard a real one.

it seems nimble until you fly it against the gazelle in guns only air combat.

then all of a sudden it feels like a bus..

With proper settings, it'll ALWAYS feel like a bus :D