Is there a datalink between units?

Hi,

I just read about a SAM tactic, called "buddy launch". With this tactic, you have some independet SAM units (like 3 or 4 TORs, I don't mean the Radar unit and its starters like the SA-3), which can communicate with each other.

There isn't explained how they communicate, but I think it's a kind of datalink or the "shooters" use their Radar in the receive-only mode.

One of these units searches and tracks the target, while the other units use this Radarecho for their missiles. It's an effective tactic against SEAD capable targets.

So, are the DCS SAM units capable to share their Radar return or is there a datalink, if all units are in one Group?

I don't think so, but didn't play CA for a while. Maybe, it could be realized with a script?! :book:

Thanks in advance.

PS@Mods: If not, pleases move this thread to the CA wishlist. :D

It is a common technique since the Vietnam war to use the general air picture provided by EWR to launch SAMs ballistically and only switch on guidance radar in the terminal phase. That gives the target little warning and reaction time and SEAD flights little time for surpression.

That is not possible in DCS. Generally are SAMS pretty teethles in DCS but you can search for Grimes IADS script, which tries to simulate IADS via switches radars on and off or their alarm state. Works to a degree, but SAMS still shoot too early.

I don't mean EWR sites, but different SAM Radars. So, one Radar tracks/locks the target, the other units shoot with their Radars on receive-mode on that targets Radar return. It's different from that tactic, you described.

Thanks for the DCS answer.

Yes I understood what you mean. In DCS launcher and radar needs to be in one Group but not at the same place so if you put several SRs,TRs and launcher in one group and spread them over a wide area you might get the case that the tracking seems to be done from one area while the SAM is launched from another. That was always the case but I dont know if there is a limiting distance set for the group to work as one group.

Still the tracking radar is emitting all the time and broadcasting the SAM launch, which is not realistic. That was already avoided with old SA2 and SA3 systems.

Ah, ok. But I mean different independent SAM units, like the TOR or SA-8. Each unit is independent, but they could work as a group, using the Radar of one of these TORs or SA-8s.

By the way: Is there an override option in CA, so that I can shoot the missile in passive mode, like you described (like the F-16 loosing 1995 over Kosovo) or do I have to lock the target before launching the missile? IIRC, you need a "hard lock" for SARH and IR SAMs.

I think SHORAD and point defense systems do need to be guided by their source/launcher.

I have too little experience with CA SHORAD.

Hi,

 

I just read about a SAM tactic, called "buddy launch". With this tactic, you have some independet SAM units (like 3 or 4 TORs, I don't mean the Radar unit and its starters like the SA-3), which can communicate with each other.

 

There isn't explained how they communicate, but I think it's a kind of datalink or the "shooters" use their Radar in the receive-only mode.

That is the job of the "cable pullers".

In military there are actually "communication soldiers" even in every SAM system and their jobs are all kind connections building, so they go out and they carry cable reels and lay it down all over the places. Fairly though job because each time the positions are changed, they go to reel cables in and out again. The ranges for cables can be around 3-15km for main line and then from it each unit gets about 0.3-2km.

This is how the batteries operate and deliver data to each other without any worries about jamming or enemy listening your transmissions as everything works over the hardline.

The most critical information is deliver by face-to-face but it is slowest, then comes the messengers that drive all around to deliver codes (tisk to be shot/captured) and then comes the hardline (risk to be tapped in) and lastly comes the wireless (risk to be listened) transmissions.

Once the connections are done, you can do what ever like tactics for firing you like that the system just supports.

One of these units searches and tracks the target, while the other units use this Radarecho for their missiles. It's an effective tactic against SEAD capable targets.

Yes, why launch platforms can stay longer on places and radar platforms change their positions and the radars are turned Off/On etc.

The problem with SEAD is that typical anti-radiation missiles remembers the radiation last-seen position and flies at there, so even if you turn radar Off, it flies there. Why one of the mission critical features in radar platforms is their time to move in case of emergency. So how long it does take from the crew to shut down the radar and get moving, just to get in cover from possible missile fragmentations.

And this is why example Russia has many SAM units that can launch from the move (like Strela-10 or Tunguska) and today even more modern ones like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1 that can engage every SEAD missile there is.

There are many ways to detect the SEAD aircrafts as ground units as well has a RWR systems that can detect the Air-to-Ground radars and this way signal the air-defence systems to search target, launch at the target and just active the radar at the last seconds when it is often already too late for aircraft to do anything.

Example here is Strela-10M4

You can see the RWR system between windshields (behind the driver prism).

So that platform can just sit and detect when a A-G radar scans the ground and this way detect the range and direction of aircraft, turn the optical guidance system to search and track the target, launch a IR missile and wait it to get to the target. So the aircraft pilot changes are to actually 1) MWS to detect the launch 2) Spot the missile launch visually.

Then there are the modern upgraded model for that called "SOSNA" that uses laser beam guidance.

So, are the DCS SAM units capable to share their Radar return or is there a datalink, if all units are in one Group?

The group behaves so that when one see something, all knows it. Actually a "group" should be considered as "single unit" by its AI logics. This makes it so that if you have a SAM group that has EWR and all rest of the things, then all knows what is around without seeking anything by individually.

This is likely just to make the AI far less resource hungry when each individual unit isn't doing checkings and have own behavior.

It would be nice if DCS would start simulating the datalinks and wiring and times to take things down etc. As now many SAM units just move right away while they should have a couple minute time to get things in transport conditions.

In the combat parts DCS is just lacking many elements and it is making every pilot work easier as they can basically just shoot target ducks on ground.

Thanks!

But as SANFU said, there isn't an override for SARH guided SAMs, right?

The only thing that would simulate this to a certain degree is the use of a radar station with LOTATC and UR/SRS to talk to the operators of human controlled sam units to activate their radar and engage the target.

Still not as it can be, but it gives the aircraft a little less warning although an SA-8 still needs a full 30 seconds to lock :X

There's a lot of stuff a SAM can do, but there's nothing passive about most of that, just .. deceitful.

Eg. the optical guidance isn't passive - rather it lets you guide the missile in the presence of track-breakers, but the (or A) radar is still involved in guiding the missile, eg. if you consider beam-riders.

There is also the possibility of performing a ballistic launch and guiding in the last few seconds only. This is low Pk if the target does anything about it, but it's viable and has been used.

Radar 'blinking' is used in data-linked systems to run reasonably frequent surveillance without giving much time for an ARM to track. One SAM searches, sends data to to other SAMs, shuts down the radar, then another SAM takes over, etc.

All this data-linked stuff is not modeled at all, at least for now.

I can recomment Grimes IADS script. It is currently the Best you can get out off the AI.

Actually that script shows us that we can do even better - Grimes did a great job, and I wanted to improve on it but never found the time.

If there's anyone actually willing to write the LUA, let me know and I'll discuss some ideas.

Would like to do the work, but nothing time here, as well.

Yeah, there are a lot of nice stuff and knowledge about SAM tactics in the world wide web. I read a few books about SEAD, too. Good preparing for the Hornet, anyway.

 

Example here is Strela-10M4

 

 

I hate those things with a Warthog passion.

Actually that script shows us that we can do even better - Grimes did a great job, and I wanted to improve on it but never found the time.

 

If there's anyone actually willing to write the LUA, let me know and I'll discuss some ideas.

As a big fan of weaseling, I also started a script project to improve the IADS. The scripting support in DCS opens a lot of possibilities to customize the behavior of the AI on a case per case basis.

However, I never finished the project as the scripting system provides a very limited set of functions to interact with the ground groups. Currently only limited stuff can be done through changing "alert state".

A function to toggle on/off specific radars (sensors) within the group ('alert state' affects all sensors, including visual), for example, is something that the scripting system really needs.

But there is already an emission on/off trigger action in the basic mission editor. IIRC for almost two to three years. This controls the AI Radar only.

If you refer to the "radar using" option, that is only available for aircraft, not for ground groups.

AFAIK the only way to control ground groups is through the 'alarm state' option, but that's an overkill with several undesired side effects.

Hopefully ED will provide some additional scripting functions in future versions.

No, there is a trigger in the actions for unit emitter on/off. Its also part of CA control. Annoyingly its not present with scripting. There is a feature request to add it.