9 Ball

Greetings folks,

Iam trying to gather all the info I can regarding JTAC capibilitys for my squadron. The Idea is to get them to integrate CA with the rest of the wing´s in there MP missions and have more real player action.

So, so far this is what I know...

- A-10C No problem reading lase and gets JTAC code readback.

- K-50 Can read lase, but armament is tweakd KH29-L and KH25-ML. Miisile must be unlock after launch in order to capture IR spectrum

- Su25T I think it´s same as above. They share same system

- SA342L So far, only optic and rangefinder IR. No laseing

- Mi8 Haven´t checked this one out yeat

- Mirage2000 I think it has leasing capabilitys but don´t know how they use it.

That`s about all the unit´s that I know that "might" have leasing capibility´s and can readback/recive code´s.

It would be nice to have a list ( I bet it´s not to long) of all the units that can perform a 9 ball call within DCS and which armament the use to achieve so. Some have there on way to do same, so it would be cool to know that too.

Any help will be appreciated!

Care,

Red

Apparently the Su-25T LGW are tuned to the 1113 NATO PRF code. The Ka-50 and Su-25 are reported not to work but you should test.

Mirage can deliver LGBs of a code set in the mission editor (1688 default). The airplane itself has no laser capability of any kind; only the bomb does.

Greetings folks,

 

Iam trying to gather all the info I can regarding JTAC capibilitys for my squadron. The Idea is to get them to integrate CA with the rest of the wing´s in there MP missions and have more real player action.

 

So, so far this is what I know...

 

- A-10C No problem reading lase and gets JTAC code readback.

 

- K-50 Can read lase, but armament is tweakd KH29-L and KH25-ML. Miisile must be unlock after launch in order to capture IR spectrum

 

- Su25T I think it´s same as above. They share same system

 

- SA342L So far, only optic and rangefinder IR. No laseing

 

- Mi8 Haven´t checked this one out yeat

 

- Mirage2000 I think it has leasing capabilitys but don´t know how they use it.

 

That`s about all the unit´s that I know that "might" have leasing capibility´s and can readback/recive code´s.

 

It would be nice to have a list ( I bet it´s not to long) of all the units that can perform a 9 ball call within DCS and which armament the use to achieve so. Some have there on way to do same, so it would be cool to know that too.

 

Any help will be appreciated!

 

Care,

 

Red

JTAC, or FAC depending on country and army, is a much more versatile task, than simple "Lasing" bombs.

First of all, any unit can act as AFAC/FAC/JTAC from ground unit, helicopter to airplane. He needs eyes on target, or at least a good idea where the target is. And he needs a means of communicating with the aircrafts doing the actual attack.

A 9-Line CAS does not require a lasermark. It can be done by Smoke marker, IR pointer at night, or a classic talk-on from a visual feature. (Actually it is good practice for the FAC/JTAC to qualify if the pilot is looking at the exact same target by a short talk-on).

The JTAC role in CA has a couple of means to guide an aircraft attack and often it is not the laserpointer...

So for the Mirage, the GBU-12 can be lased onto target (default code 1688 cannot be changed. So JTAC needs to use L1688 to lase).

In addition, with the new coming options of the PPA and INS-Navigation (http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2848478&postcount=2875) the Mirage 2000C can deliver CCRP bombing on coordinates, which the JTAC can provide, as well.

A lot of interesting scenarios. :D

Unfortunately I think the control of the JTAC tool is very uncomfortable. The zoom level is much too low (the gunner has more zoom through his main gun) and I find it very hard to get the cross directly on target with ranges >4000m Tried it now several times to read coordinates from there and give them to an A-10C, which then had absolutely no contact to the target.

The smoke markers I seem to set directly near the target vehicle also prove to be hundreds of meters away, if I check with the external view..

So I think the JTAC tool can be GREAT fun, if you have a coop mission with CAS flights, but it needs a GREAT overhaul

Unfortunately I think the control of the JTAC tool is very uncomfortable. The zoom level is much too low (the gunner has more zoom through his main gun) and I find it very hard to get the cross directly on target with ranges >4000m Tried it now several times to read coordinates from there and give them to an A-10C, which then had absolutely no contact to the target.

The smoke markers I seem to set directly near the target vehicle also prove to be hundreds of meters away, if I check with the external view..

So I think the JTAC tool can be GREAT fun, if you have a coop mission with CAS flights, but it needs a GREAT overhaul

Well, there was a time, when FACs had no Laser range finder and needed to translate the visual lay of the land, to a map in their lap. Double and triple check the coordinates on the map and then check with the pilot he is looking at the correct coordinates....

It can be as exciting and fun, as you wish. Depending how much you immerse yourself in the role.

Something like:

Pilot (readback coordinates and...): "I am visual with a small hut 200m east of 6 oil tanks." - JTAC: "Negativ, negativ, negativ, from the oil tanks southeast 300m is a group of trees." - Pilot: "Copy, visual tree group" - JTAC: "Directly west of the trees is a warehouse." - Pilot: "Copy! Eyes on. one storey warehouse. with a dead road end to the North." - JTAC: "Affirm! That is your target. No Factor! Choice of weapon at your discretion. You are cleared hot."

You can even do that with the Targetting sight of the TOW from a Humvee, or with a single manpad guy using binos.

Though I agree the JTAC interface could use some love.:thumbup:

Yet, I'd rather love to see a combination of enhanced binos, a separate laser range finder and a GPS for your own location (there is a Garmin 430 planned for some planes, may be we can have a GPS for JTACs as well?). And as Hotel Sierra equipment a Rover to connect to the TGP feed?

So a JTAC would use the binos to identify a position, get the range finder and lase it, then get his GPS position, get direction and distance right on the map and read the coordinates.

One big benefit for the JTAC would be, he can do something already while the CAS aircraft are spooling up, and travelling to the AO.

It would also pay of to pre-plan coordinates for strikes on movers, say crossings, bridges, choke points in the hills etc. :D

Well.. you are right, and describing a position can be fun, but when there is the option to do it via laser + LSS in the A-10, you should be able to use it without getting a typewriter's cramp.

And of course, you can use the laser to guide a LGB...you can't describe the position to a bomb. Well you can... "Okay, do you see that bridge with that group of trees a few meters west of it....uhm...hello?" :D

Well.. you are right, and describing a position can be fun, but when there is the option to do it via laser + LSS in the A-10, you should be able to use it without getting a typewriter's cramp.

 

And of course, you can use the laser to guide a LGB...you can't describe the position to a bomb. Well you can... "Okay, do you see that bridge with that group of trees a few meters west of it....uhm...hello?" :D

The thread started with the potential options for implementing JTAC/FAC with a Squadron or Wing.

I chimed in, because the JTAC/FAC role is by no means limited or bound to the A-10C or a LGB as only options.

On the contrary. It is tremendous fun to do FACing or JTACing as in real life... with any available platform, from the MiG-21bis, over an F-5E to the Su-25T or A-10C.

Lasing bombs is just one task for the ground role and using other means of coordinating CAS. It provides a great scenario for any plane capable of ground attacks.

Whenever we used human JTAC it was usually more than 70% smoke marker, talk on and quick run ins with rockets, gun and/or cluster bombs.

If you haven't read it already, I recommend "Firestrike 7/9" from Paul "Bommer" Grahame & Damien Lewis, which gives a really great impression of a modern JTAC job in recent Afghanistan Wars and the ground perspective. It is a really cool book. :thumbup: :gun_rifle:

Side note : You can get a LOT OF additional zoom in binoculars view using the camera zoom in & zoom out commands (RALT Num/ and RALT Num*)

EDIT: With respect to smoke markers, try to target the base of the vehicle and you'll have better luck. I believe the laser passes through vehicles to the terrain behind them sometimes.

That would explain why the coordinates are way off, too.

:thumbup:

Thank you folks for your insight and info so far :thumbup:

As far as I know, CCT started to develop in the Vietnam era. It was developed as a fast response action for the warfare of the time. So yes, they did use the best way to comunicate locations to CAS units be it by smoke or voice. I didnt not say laseing was/is the only way to call a 9 line.

CCT (Combat Control Team) was developed at first by the USAF in conjuntion with the Army, thus Joint-Ops as we know today. Today a CCT can be from any branch of a Army, which today have each there own CCT´s. So JTAC´s, AFO, FO, or how ever each army´s want´s to call them, are all CCT´s.

The reason why I only mentioned laseing is because to a newcomer laseing is more atractive for the newcomer CAS pilot. Iam not saying it´s the only way to do it.

Yes we could have better binos and all that, but that´s the fun (or not :D) about discovering DCS! Your always in for a surprise :D

One little remark with regards to aircraft capable as per the OP,

The F5e is also capable of carrying a gbu12 laser guided munition, it does need the JTAC to pre-agree a laser code with the pilot before takeoff, the F5 pilot changes it in his kneeboard prior to engine start as i understand it.

Something similar I imagine for the mirage.

Thanks Razgriz33!

Didn´t know about the F5e, great news!