Harrier timeline

Decoy: can we get a feature list, like the MiG-19 which shows what features/items are left to be implemented? This might help people understand your timeline toward completion. Thanks.

Please see below 6 months worth of Updates, some updates take longer than others, hence why we now have the Bug Tracker to ensure we get the the issues and missing features.

Since August the only new major feature is "-Bomb Interval now working" the rest are very minor, non significant, new features & bug corrections to existing features.

Clearly it's far from being finished (please see below), as promised by 2018. And the reason is because you shifted your resources to mig19.

If you would have kept the momentum going, maybe we would be closer to finishing the Harrier....but we're not....Razbam made this choice!

Dude, the AV-8B is FAR from feature complete. The Datalink is still completely absent (it does have datalink, used for CAS handoff from JTAC. This is on the CAS MFD pages).

 

 

Here's a short and non-exhaustive list of missing features/broken features :

 

 

- TPOD Point track

- TPOD HTS mode

- TPOD slave mode

- TPOD LST

- DMT Moving track

- CAS Page and Datalink

- DMT Sidewinder Slave

- JDAM

- Radio panel (not UFC)

- Some VREST features

- FLIR Hotspot Tracker

- Most of the contrast and brightness adjustment knobs

- AUTO release (not really functional right now)

- CCIP symbology (not accurate at all)

- CCIP-to-AUTO (super useful for bombing, it is close to what CCIP Consent is in the A-10C)

- Ground Power panel

- EMCON mode

- NAVFLIR Cool Down

- Manual Delivery mode for bombing

- UFC and ODU weapons programming (in fact, most of the weapon programming)

- Correct release sequence for TER

- Sinderwinder Expanded Acquisition Mode

- Loft delivery mode for bombs

- Expendables programming

- Expendables auto release

- INS alignment and errors (switching to IFA makes the alignment perfect). It is generally really buggy.

- Correct waypoint editing with GRID coordinates and TDC (it is inverted and buggy right now)

- Target point and Mark point data entry

- Magnetic variation and its effects

- Data cartridge and data transfers

- Working RCIP delivery (currently only BCIP and CIP, i.e. DMT computed, deliveries are working)

- Most of the LHA promised feature (animated crew, Hangars, etc)

- AGM-65 force correlation

- AGM-65 ship mode

- AGM-122 emitter location (the symbol on the HUD does not point to the real emitter location)

- Mk20/CBU programming

- AFC autopilot (currently it does not behave like the real aircraft at all)

In fact, most of the functionalities presented in the NATOPS are absent.

Further discussion is quite pointless, I have made my case & ther's nothing more to add.

Clearly it's far from being finished (please see below), as promised by 2018. And the reason is because you shifted your resources to mig19.

If you would have kept the momentum going, maybe we would be closer to finishing the Harrier....but we're not....Razbam made this choice!

 

.

I don't think coding a few steam gauges would put a serious dent in coding the far more complex avionics and tageting systems on the Harrier. Then there's the whole, there's a different team on each project thing...

Industry (every industry) standard to have concurrent development.

Eagle Dynamics may not be so sharing with their progress as RAZBAM but we know they at least have some of their resources devoted to the F-16 and Mi-24 despite the Hornet, and the sim in general, still requiring work. (Not to mention all their existing modules).

Similarly you can guarantee that the other third parties have as yet unannounced modules under development.

Yeah, it's early access. Early access means different things to different companies. Now we know for a fact what EA means to RAZBAM.

We know how some people are overly harsh on them, and we know how some are apologetic fanboys. Most lie somewhere in between.

I will not purchase into another EA offering from RAZBAM. I've made myself pretty clear in the past with how frustrated I have been with this developer so I won't belabor the point here.

I hope RAZBAM takes this kind of feedback to heart though and while they can do whatever they like, I hope they will change some of their practices and focus more on finishing what was started rather than start new concurrent projects.

I really hope I can get the promises that I bought...someday soon.

Yeah, it's early access. Early access means different things to different companies. Now we know for a fact what EA means to RAZBAM.

 

We know how some people are overly harsh on them, and we know how some are apologetic fanboys. Most lie somewhere in between.

 

I will not purchase into another EA offering from RAZBAM. I've made myself pretty clear in the past with how frustrated I have been with this developer so I won't belabor the point here.

 

I hope RAZBAM takes this kind of feedback to heart though and while they can do whatever they like, I hope they will change some of their practices and focus more on finishing what was started rather than start new concurrent projects.

 

I really hope I can get the promises that I bought...someday soon.

This is a good attitude. I'm not one for early access purchase either and never pre-order. I wait until it's at least not frustratingly incomplete.

However I understand that a fair portion of people want a module as soon as it's shape vaguely resembles the real thing and it can fly. Just look how many posts are on every modules development threads stating "gib"

Choosing the point in development for an early access release is always going to be a balancing act of damned if you, damned if you don't for any developer.

The problem also is with ED'2 and 3rd party addon developers use of the terms alpha, beta, Early acces and release version.

I find with Early acces they most often refer to a version called "Open Beta", but most often what we get are Open Alpha's.

Here are the terms as I know them from software developement:

Alpha: Software dveleopment version, where many features are missing or incomplete (what we most often see in DCS EA).

Beta: Software developement version, where it is feature complete, but bugs has to be ound and fixed. Only very minor additions of new features.

Release candidate: Software developement version, where only very minor bugs exist, feature complete and feature locked. Mostly used to test that the final installer put's files anto the right places and with th right versions.

Release version: Final product, which has beome feature complete and bugfree so far as possible. Mostly called V1.0. Bugs will mostly be found as it starts to be used by a much larger community.

After that subsequent version will be released and new full versions or updates to squeeze out new bugs found by customers. new features might be added.

In DCS these terms are used very loose. Most often EA are alpha versions, and what are called release versions are still in beta state, like the M2000C.

Alpha state can take quite some time and should normally not be released.

Beta state should be as short as possible. This is the state in which it could be released as open beta i.e. EA.

8<

 

Choosing the point in development for an early access release is always going to be a balancing act of damned if you, damned if you don't for any developer.

I don't think so. I've worked in IT for 35 years now, most of that time with computer manufacturers, periphery manufacturers, and software houses, but also on the customer side. I know something about how products are introduced to the market.

I would wager that RAZBAM doesn't have a plan to stick to, and that is bad.

If RAZBAM had a plan, they could easily state the features they are going to put into the Harrier, and when they plan to add which features. It's perfectly legitimate to not include all features on the release date, or even necessarily the first update. In fact, it would probably be a bad idea to even try.

But in the industry, customers are waiting on certain features, and have to be able to rely on the manufacturer's road-map, even if not 100%. Companies on which you cannot rely to a certain extent, go out of business; customers go elsewhere. And again, it doesn't mean everything always has to work out like plan. If you cannot get a feature finished on time, you tell the customer, and tell him what your plan is to get that feature completed. Nearly all customers will accept that, even if they are not entirely happy. They are far happier than being left in the dark and dragged along with vagaries.

In general --and this has nothing to do with RAZBAM in specific--, what I'm seeing the the DCS-Producers world is:

- Never promise anything, someone might want to hold you accountable.

- Always present products, already so far along in development, that nothing can be changed, then no one can complain that we ignore their complaints about not changing anything.

- Only listen to your best buddies (favorite customers) when thinking about the future, because listening to those difficult customers... well they just don't deserve to be listened to, so they can never have any valid points or ideas.

- Never promise anything, someone might want to hold you accountable.

- Always present products, already so far along in development, that nothing can be changed, then no one can complain that we ignore their complaints about not changing anything.

:megalol: DCS in a nutshell

@decoy

ever thought about the fact that people might be pissed that instead of finishing the product they paid for AV8,you decide to make a completly new plane ready for EA. and i am not talking about the modlers working on new stuff while the coders finishing the remaining things on older modules.

No you took at least 50% of your team (modlers/Coders/engeneers) to work an a new product.

Yes its your buisness and you run it how you want, but dont expect people to like it...

my faith in you finishing modules has dropped significantly and my wallet will act accordingly

Here guys you can borrow this, Why not just wait for full release :) Think in the end it will end up like steam and we will wait for fully complete products and no EA

thanks but i prefer a torch and a pitchfork, like in the old days :)

In general --and this has nothing to do with RAZBAM in specific--, what I'm seeing the the DCS-Producers world is:

- Never promise anything, someone might want to hold you accountable.

- Always present products, already so far along in development, that nothing can be changed, then no one can complain that we ignore their complaints about not changing anything.

- Only listen to your best buddies (favorite customers) when thinking about the future, because listening to those difficult customers... well they just don't deserve to be listened to, so they can never have any valid points or ideas.

That's not just DCS Developers, that's most video game developers now adays it seems...

Premise: I fully agree with all the complaints expressed up to now.

I resume the DECOY post:

Hi guys

The Harrier is having it's bugs fixed by a new member of the team so will continue to get fixed no matter what is happening to the other airframe.

The mirage is scheduled to have an overhaul starting next month and then all resources will be on the Harrier.

Very well.

But what will be done for the Mirage? What for the Harrier? When? Will all Mirage resources go to the Harrier? For which reason it is not possible to make two parallel strands dividing the effort of the resources (obviously the implementation time lengthens for the single module, but at least no one is left waiting for months, or maybe years)?

The thing that annoys me most is that buying an EA we are supporting the company and therefore our trust should be reciprocated.

This with transparent and shared schedules.

But this does not happen.

No one is surprised by any delays, it can happen, but in 10 years of work in the IT field, it has hardly happened to me to see such a lacking and inefficient project management towards a customer.

A customer who has already paid, I repeat.

A customer who trusted the company by buying an incomplete product, I repeat.

If I worked like this in project management I do not know how long I could last ...

That said, is it so difficult to provide a lineup with ongoing activities and related schedules for release on DCSW open beta?

As stated the MIRAGRE is getting these aspects looked at.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=227365

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I'm sure Razbam wishes coding went faster but I know from experience it take a lot of time and effort. Sometimes you even start something and have to redevelop to make things better. Sometimes the lead developers make something similar or make change that break what you were doing and you need to wait for them to finish or you need to redevelop to make your code work with theirs. Sometimes I feel sorry for the hate these developers get from people who have zero clue how hard developing things to simulate real world models as closely as possible actually is.

First off, the Harrier in its current state is still pretty good. Yes it is missing features, but it doesn't mean it can't be used for what it can do in its current state. And with Razbam planning to keep improving in the future that is great. People here just need to be patient.

As Decoy stated, you read about early access and if you buy the module you are technically agreeing to accept the condition that the module is early access and that it could take longer than expected to complete. It is an option they give to people and people have an option to not buy it in early access.

I for one enjoy all of the modules all of the developers create and thank them for doing an amazing job with what there is so far. So thank you Razbam for what you have given us so far and I look forward to your continued development into the future.

The problem also is with ED'2 and 3rd party addon developers use of the terms alpha, beta, Early acces and release version.

 

 

I find with Early acces they most often refer to a version called "Open Beta", but most often what we get are Open Alpha's.

 

 

Here are the terms as I know them from software developement:

 

 

Alpha: Software dveleopment version, where many features are missing or incomplete (what we most often see in DCS EA).

Beta: Software developement version, where it is feature complete, but bugs has to be ound and fixed. Only very minor additions of new features.

Release candidate: Software developement version, where only very minor bugs exist, feature complete and feature locked. Mostly used to test that the final installer put's files anto the right places and with th right versions.

Release version: Final product, which has beome feature complete and bugfree so far as possible. Mostly called V1.0. Bugs will mostly be found as it starts to be used by a much larger community.

 

After that subsequent version will be released and new full versions or updates to squeeze out new bugs found by customers. new features might be added.

 

In DCS these terms are used very loose. Most often EA are alpha versions, and what are called release versions are still in beta state, like the M2000C.

 

Alpha state can take quite some time and should normally not be released.

Beta state should be as short as possible. This is the state in which it could be released as open beta i.e. EA.

I had early access to Ark Survival Evolved for 1-2 years before release. It was in Alpha stage.

I had early access to Minecraft for 2 years before release. It was in Alpha stage.

I had early access to Lord of the Rings Online for 1.5 years (all that existed was the shire). It was in alpha stage.

edit: I have had early access to Star Citizen for 6 years it will be in Alpha for at least another 2 years and probably not released until 2021 (if lucky).

It's not just DCS. The term early access doesn't mean beta, it is a loose term and many game software developers have there own way of doing things.

As stated the MIRAGRE is getting these aspects looked at.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=227365

 

 

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Hello Decoy, thank you for the information.

I don't want to be very controversial, but I have exposed several questions in my post and it does not seem correct to dismiss everything with a link (which among other things only answers a single question and only partially - there I did not find a precise timeline for the Mirage).

However, since here we are in the Harrier thread, what are the planned interventions for it and on what dates will they be released? I'm not talking about bugs, but I'm referring exclusively to the missing features.

We simply need a short list with the planned improvements and related delivery dates.

If you do not have this kind of information then it's starting to worry ... if there are no activities planned for the Harrier in 2019 in order to complete the module with the missing features, presumably it means that we will pass, perhaps, to 2020 to see some new features ... maybe ...

Thank you.

As stated the MIRAGRE is getting these aspects looked at.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=227365

 

 

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Sorry I forgot to add, shortly a updated list will be created highlighting the improvements and missing aspects of the planes the guys will be working on.

Still waiting for a few team members to return from Holidays.

Oh, so now we have to wait for another module before the AV8B gets it's development upgrades....good one! 1:st it was mig-19 now it's M2K & God knows how long it's going to take for the AV8B to be finished now!:doh:

 

 

The roadmap set 6 month's ago was to have a Finished Harrier by 2018. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3536909&postcount=1 .

Before the release the time-frame given by Razbam was to have AV8B finished within a year. That was 1 of the selling points & for 1:st 7 months the development was steady...but then it went downhill. :thumbdown:

 

 

My trust in Razbam is totally gone!

The way I see it, all this talk was just fake marketing to sell the Harrier. :mad:

 

Razbam did it again, just as with the M2K. Fact: Promised a fast development, took our money, ignored AV8B development & didn't even come close to a "Finished Harrier" by 2018!

Friend, I understand your mood very much. F/A18C is many times more complex than AV8B and released later than AV8B. As a result, the development progress of F/A18C has begun to catch up with and surpass AV8B. We've been waiting too long. But now that we have purchased AV8B, we have no choice but to remain patient and wait. And in the future, you and I will no longer support any unfinished pre-experience version of Razbam.

Excellent news decoy, a clear schedule of planned features with some form of ordering with regular status updates would help alot wotg peoples concerns abput progress.

I had early access to Ark Survival Evolved for 1-2 years before release. It was in Alpha stage.

I had early access to Minecraft for 2 years before release. It was in Alpha stage.

I had early access to Lord of the Rings Online for 1.5 years (all that existed was the shire). It was in alpha stage.

edit: I have had early access to Star Citizen for 6 years it will be in Alpha for at least another 2 years and probably not released until 2021 (if lucky).

 

It's not just DCS. The term early access doesn't mean beta, it is a loose term and many game software developers have there own way of doing things.

All released EA modules has been / are called Open BETA !!

And as told many times, the problem is not that they are beta versions and takes time to finish !!

The problem really is that it seems they don´t have the resources to run parallel projects and therfore leaves not only one, but two projects behind, just to get the next EA module ready - that is by no means fair for us who paid for the modules that seems to run endless with no real progress, clearly because focus has shifted away from the two modules.

I´, happy to hear that something is now goinf to happen to the M2000C, and the Harrier will follow, but with my experience so far, I want to see this really happening before I believe it.

Bottom line - no MIG-19 for me before both the M2000C and AV-8B have got their promised features and will be bugfree (as far as possible offcause).

Sorry I forgot to add, shortly a updated list will be created highlighting the improvements and missing aspects of the planes the guys will be working on.

 

Still waiting for a few team members to return from Holidays.

Is there any news?

Thx a lot.

It's been over two weeks now, any chance we could get that list, @decoy ?

It's been over two weeks now, any chance we could get that list, @decoy ?

+1!

+1!

I am still creating the list and will share as soon as I can

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