Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

The Mirage should have datalink as well, just saying.

For the D2M, it really doesn't save one as often as one may think because it can just see below the waterline and has a pretty big blindspot to the rear as well. It really does best what its designed for, warn against IR-SAMs.

Headon the T can only pick up the Mirage at shorter ranges then 530D RTR and can be spoofed in full afterburner anyways so there is really no reason to be afraid of that thing, so yeah. If we want to play hardcore throw out the D2M.

Missiles use the exact same guidance btw, they just do not have the drag coefficient of a school bus driving sideways.

Overall I think though weapon system balance wise this is the most balanced setup there is going to be. Best change to bring a more equal usage of a2a platforms would probably be give all aircraft full fuel or all aircraft no fuel. The setup that Mirages get full fuel and the FC3 aircraft have to refuel really does heavily favour the Mirage in about every way like that.

Also give the flanker datalink. Although I would prefer to keep the D2M then as long as the Mirage is missing its datalink entirely. But then again it rarely saves one so personally I am fine with no D2M and datalink for the flanker.

My last rant was in no way me bitching about BF. Im just trying to help with balance and come with ideas. I think a lot of people are tired of the Mirage v Mirage battles that have been going on.

 

Something to look at is the 104th's Operation Bisen mission. That mission has the Russian planes pitted against F15s and Mirages. However, the Su27 has the ER in that mission. Hell, Im pretty sure it even has datalink as AWACS is enabled. Even though those 2 things are true, more people fly that mission on both sides than any other mission that 104th offers.

 

Going back to missiles real quick since Bisen gives the Su27 the ER. The 27R and 27T are really really bad. As Ive said before its like launching cinder blocks from your wings. I think giving the 27 and 29 the ER would really help in the fighter battles. As it sits right now if I can't sneak up on someone I have to turn around. The 27R and T are that bad. Im pretty confident the R73 has a longer range than the T. Occasionally I will get a kill with an R, but that is more because the enemy pilot flew straight into it.

I have seen Reds get 7+ mile kills with 27T's in BF, of course the target did not know he was fired at and burned right into it, but the Magic and the Aim 9 are no where near that. The SU 27 have both the best IR Missiles in BF, so it needs the best (from the present set) SARH missile as well to be competitive?

The Mirage does need to start with zero fuel, I agree with that. A large part of its popularity is because of how quickly you can get it in the air.

JD

AKA_MattE

I have seen Reds get 7+ mile kills with 27T's in BF, of course the target did not know he was fired at and burned right into it, but the Magic and the Aim 9 are no where near that. The SU 27 have both the best IR Missiles in BF, so it needs the best (from the present set) SARH missile as well to be competitive?

 

The Mirage does need to start with zero fuel, I agree with that. A large part of its popularity is because of how quickly you can get it in the air.

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

If someone is burning into a T at 7 miles, yeah they are going to die. I could fire a 73 at them from that range and if they don't know its there and fly towards it and into the 73 is going to kill them too; same for the AIM9 and Magic.

The T handles like a bus and stays at max speed for under 1 second. The same can be said for the R. Go into the editor and watch the track and watch the speeds of the SARH missiles and the T. The T might as well be a very bad handling 73 and really is not worth carrying most of the time and the R is the same just radar guided so now the bandit knows about it.

Im not saying the SU27 needs everything. I just feel that everyone is always out to get the 27 for some reason. The mirage was the new boy on the block and I know that people want to fly it. All I ask is to make it a little more even for the 15 and 27. Easiest way I think you go about that is getting rid of the IR pod and fixing the fuel issue.

While you're at it, give the Flanker datalink! ;) 104th did and it seems to work well there.

I think some people underestimate the limitations of the M2000C. The simmers in the M2000C who do well in combat either get lucky or understand the platforms limitations and play to its strengths. I used to get 1/10 hits with a 530 and now, I'm probably between 1/2 and 3/4. Since the M2000C does not carry 37 missiles one must be much more frugal with that trigger and there is something to be said for firing discipline. As such we have learned when is an appropriate time to shoot and when is an appropriate time to disengage for a more advantageous positioning. I believe I won three - four sorties yesterday and after running the replay over night and reviewing the tacview acmi today, I can tell you each sortie I was ~200 knots TAS faster than my opponent. No matter the missile, 9/10 times the fighter with the greater energy advantage wins the fight. Now after a quick, like very quick, google search I can tell you that a major advantage of the SU-27 is the large radar gimbals, thus allowing for greater angles of beaming and notching without loosing SARH lock. If used properly and with greater kinetic energy (different than altitude and thus potential energy) there is no reason the SU-27 should ever loose to a mirage. I also noticed a lot of "double tapping"... in other words firing two SARH missiles within 0-5 seconds of each other. If you loose lock you just lost 2, not one, missiles. This is ill advised. Usually after a notch the target will turn back into the fight (now with less energy) and a lock will again be available. That's when you fire a second missile. I too had issues defeating the 530 in a mirage, so I setup a single player mission where I was unarmed and facing a M2000C on expert with a full load... This does not precisely simulate what you'll find online, but allows you to determine what exactly has to be done to defeat the 530. I found my actions were initially too gently and in order to burn the energy of the 530 (while maintaining lock) I had to make very quick velocity changes in all available planes. I hope this is somewhat helpful, but honestly, when I fail, I look to see what I could have done differently. Frankly its easier to adapt my tactics than to change copyrighted code from Eagle Dynamics...

 

Also give the flanker datalink. Although I would prefer to keep the D2M then as long as the Mirage is missing its datalink entirely. But then again it rarely saves one so personally I am fine with no D2M and datalink for the flanker.

The Flanker is in the same boat, it currently has a dl in mp like the Mirage would have, just standard gci/awacs contact info. What the Flanker is missing in mp the Mirage lacks in rl, that is flight of four dl which is far more valuable in a tactical sense.

If someone is burning into a T at 7 miles, yeah they are going to die. I could fire a 73 at them from that range and if they don't know its there and fly towards it and into the 73 is going to kill them too; same for the AIM9 and Magic.

 

The T handles like a bus and stays at max speed for under 1 second. The same can be said for the R. Go into the editor and watch the track and watch the speeds of the SARH missiles and the T. The T might as well be a very bad handling 73 and really is not worth carrying most of the time and the R is the same just radar guided so now the bandit knows about it.

 

Im not saying the SU27 needs everything. I just feel that everyone is always out to get the 27 for some reason. The mirage was the new boy on the block and I know that people want to fly it. All I ask is to make it a little more even for the 15 and 27. Easiest way I think you go about that is getting rid of the IR pod and fixing the fuel issue.

 

While you're at it, give the Flanker datalink! ;) 104th did and it seems to work well there.

Anyone who is sane enough to flare will still completely deny the 27T.

I think some people underestimate the limitations of the M2000C. The simmers in the M2000C who do well in combat either get lucky or understand the platforms limitations and play to its strengths. I used to get 1/10 hits with a 530 and now, I'm probably between 1/2 and 3/4. Since the M2000C does not carry 37 missiles one must be much more frugal with that trigger and there is something to be said for firing discipline. As such we have learned when is an appropriate time to shoot and when is an appropriate time to disengage for a more advantageous positioning. I believe I won three - four sorties yesterday and after running the replay over night and reviewing the tacview acmi today, I can tell you each sortie I was ~200 knots TAS faster than my opponent. Now matter the missile, 9/10 times the fighter with the greater energy advantage wins the fight. Now after a quick, like very quick, google search I can tell you that a major advantage of the SU-27 is the large radar gimbals, thus allowing for greater angles of beaming and notching without loosing SARH lock. If used properly and with greater kinetic energy (different than altitude and thus potential energy) there is no reason the SU-27 should ever loose to a mirage. I also noticed a lot of "double tapping"... in other words firing two SARH missiles within 0-5 seconds of each other. If you loose lock you just lost 2, not one, missiles. This is ill advised. Usually after a notch the target will turn back into the fight (now with less energy) and a lock will again be available. That's when you fire a second missile. I too had issues defeating the 530 in a mirage, so I setup a single player mission where I was unarmed and facing a M2000C on expert with a full load... This does not precisely simulate what you'll find online, but allows you to determine what exactly has to be done to defeat the 530. I found my actions were initially too gently and in order to burn the energy of the 530 (while maintaining lock) I had to make very quick velocity changes in all available planes. I hope this is somewhat helpful, but honestly, when I fail, I look to see what I could have done differently. Frankly its easier to adapt my tactics than to change copyrighted code from Eagle Dynamics...

Pls no. The r27 series of missiles has a huge drag coefficient. There is no way to compare the Super530d to the r27. There is a truth in the argument that the other platforms have x2 or more the missiles but the Mirage missiles are a lot better. There is no reason for a mirage to die in a engagement where even the su27 has more energy. play that drag coefficient on the r27 and it will literally stall before it gets to you while the 530 deals a lot better with that. If someone notches and comes back offensive he is basically guaranteed to be toasted, because the Mirage is a pretty fast frame.

Given equal pilotskill I have a really hard time to think of anything, the flanker does better which does not get initiated on surprise terms within very short range.

The Flanker is in the same boat, it currently has a dl in mp like the Mirage would have, just standard gci/awacs contact info. What the Flanker is missing in mp the Mirage lacks in rl, that is flight of four dl which is far more valuable in a tactical sense.

Yee, I know. Wait for F14 link4a TM. ;D

I would just be so happy with lookdown range beyond 30NM, provided some radar on the net sees it, there is a reason there is a 320NM setting on the radar... one can dream... ;D

And still the D2M with its very unreliable direction indicator, and for usage against not totally useless against flares missiles really not that attractive coverage is imho overrated a lot.

So yeah, remove it, will not shift the balance at all unless the pilot does not know when or how to flare.

Datalink for ze flankor would imho actually give it an advantage instead of trying to remove a perceived advantage from the baguette.

I think some people underestimate the limitations of the M2000C. The simmers in the M2000C who do well in combat either get lucky or understand the platforms limitations and play to its strengths. I used to get 1/10 hits with a 530 and now, I'm probably between 1/2 and 3/4. Since the M2000C does not carry 37 missiles one must be much more frugal with that trigger and there is something to be said for firing discipline. As such we have learned when is an appropriate time to shoot and when is an appropriate time to disengage for a more advantageous positioning. I believe I won three - four sorties yesterday and after running the replay over night and reviewing the tacview acmi today, I can tell you each sortie I was ~200 knots TAS faster than my opponent. No matter the missile, 9/10 times the fighter with the greater energy advantage wins the fight. Now after a quick, like very quick, google search I can tell you that a major advantage of the SU-27 is the large radar gimbals, thus allowing for greater angles of beaming and notching without loosing SARH lock. If used properly and with greater kinetic energy (different than altitude and thus potential energy) there is no reason the SU-27 should ever loose to a mirage. I also noticed a lot of "double tapping"... in other words firing two SARH missiles within 0-5 seconds of each other. If you loose lock you just lost 2, not one, missiles. This is ill advised. Usually after a notch the target will turn back into the fight (now with less energy) and a lock will again be available. That's when you fire a second missile. I too had issues defeating the 530 in a mirage, so I setup a single player mission where I was unarmed and facing a M2000C on expert with a full load... This does not precisely simulate what you'll find online, but allows you to determine what exactly has to be done to defeat the 530. I found my actions were initially too gently and in order to burn the energy of the 530 (while maintaining lock) I had to make very quick velocity changes in all available planes. I hope this is somewhat helpful, but honestly, when I fail, I look to see what I could have done differently. Frankly its easier to adapt my tactics than to change copyrighted code from Eagle Dynamics...

Such bad info here, Flanker gimbals? Notching while launching. Have you been reading about Su35 by any chance.

At 5nm range the 530 will reach the Flanker before the R27R is halfway, also the radar gimbal is the same.

I don't want to sound too cocky but I can avoid any SARH missile head on in the Mirage far easier than any other aircraft, the FM lets me.

In a Flanker i'm used to dominating bvr fights against amraams but in this battle I need to behave more like a 25T and be defensive that is how unthreatening the R27R is.

Such bad info here, Flanker gimbals? Notching while launching. Have you been reading about Su35 by any chance.

At 5nm range the 530 will reach the Flanker before the R27R is halfway, also the radar gimbal is the same.

I don't want to sound too cocky but I can avoid any SARH missile head on in the Mirage far easier than any other aircraft, the FM lets me.

In a Flanker i'm used to dominating bvr fights against amraams but in this battle I need to behave more like a 25T and be defensive that is how unthreatening the R27R is.

I dunno about the gimbal limits, if my memory doesnt fail me the flanker does actually have +/- 70 degrees where the RDI runs with 60+/-.

But that 10degrees really doesnt help in any way because launching that far off boresight will degrade the R27 performance below an crossbolt and launching straight then break turn and crank will also not win you any cake because the flanker will fall apart due to the probably unreasonable overstress modelling as soon as you try to match the Mirages instant.

Yeah even with the drag bug atm [the mirage has a confirmed one which is pretty noticable if one really uses the instant turn it can deliver] it has pretty compelling properties for missile defence within ones own gimball limits.

The 25T example is pretty legid, gotta say. :D

Such bad info here, Flanker gimbals? Notching while launching. Have you been reading about Su35 by any chance.

At 5nm range the 530 will reach the Flanker before the R27R is halfway, also the radar gimbal is the same.

I don't want to sound too cocky but I can avoid any SARH missile head on in the Mirage far easier than any other aircraft, the FM lets me.

In a Flanker i'm used to dominating bvr fights against amraams but in this battle I need to behave more like a 25T and be defensive that is how unthreatening the R27R is.

Radar gimbal in the Su-27 IRL is 70 degrees... I think the mirage's is 60 degrees... however this is coming from the ED forums... so all with a grain of salt, I guess... no one said launching while notching... maybe that's the problem. This is also not an acceptable tactic as the missile will loose much energy in the initial course correction. However, launching and then immediately entering into a notch and chopping the throttle is the appropriate response... on your direction change launch another. Also you'd rather be slightly below than above your opponent, as its easier for the missile to track against the sky. (Mind you these are all common mistakes I see and capitalize on.) Using the mirage's FM to avoid missiles is appropriately using the mirage to its strengths, I see no problem here. However take note next time at how much IAS you loose in those maneuvers... Would you engage again? The mirage need only to be beamed to loose track and to effectively evade one missile. Play defense, drain his two missile and then re-engage. Bait him. If he closes quick enough the Su-27's off bore-sight IR missiles will destroy a mirage in a dogfight. Listen, I only make these observation because most of what i see is jousting. Two opponents with minimal course deviation firing whenever they can (something I've been guilty of too). I hardly see pole maneuvers, bracketing, disengaging, or anything hinting at a general strategy. Clearly the SU-27 doesn't excel at these situations against the mirage, so maybe its time to adapt a new tactic.

In a Flanker i'm used to dominating bvr fights against amraams but in this battle I need to behave more like a 25T and be defensive that is how unthreatening the R27R is.

In the fight against the amraams you are using a 27ER, not the 27R.

JD

AKA_MattE

Completly agree with Moltar here, please give ER or datalink for Flanker. I wouldnt fly Flanker unless theres active GCI in BF and fly M2K instead. The 27R in DCS is embarassing....

Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk

Completly agree with Moltar here, please give ER or datalink for Flanker. I wouldnt fly Flanker unless theres active GCI in BF and fly M2K instead. The 27R in DCS is embarassing....

 

Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk

I am not sure ER and datalink is reasonable but one of them both is probably reasonable.

From a mirage perspective I dont mind that much. The eagles probably are happier fighting datalink then fighting ERs. Dunno.

I am not sure ER and datalink is reasonable but one of them both is probably reasonable.

 

From a mirage perspective I dont mind that much. The eagles probably are happier fighting datalink then fighting ERs. Dunno.

I'd say ER would make the Flanker too overpowered.

In the fight against the amraams you are using a 27ER, not the 27R.

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

Exactly and it is nowhere near as tough as 27R vs 530D.

Radar gimbal in the Su-27 IRL is 70 degrees... I think the mirage's is 60 degrees... however this is coming from the ED forums... so all with a grain of salt, I guess... no one said launching while notching... maybe that's the problem. This is also not an acceptable tactic as the missile will loose much energy in the initial course correction. However, launching and then immediately entering into a notch and chopping the throttle is the appropriate response... on your direction change launch another. Also you'd rather be slightly below than above your opponent, as its easier for the missile to track against the sky. (Mind you these are all common mistakes I see and capitalize on.) Using the mirage's FM to avoid missiles is appropriately using the mirage to its strengths, I see no problem here. However take note next time at how much IAS you loose in those maneuvers... Would you engage again? The mirage need only to be beamed to loose track and to effectively evade one missile. Play defense, drain his two missile and then re-engage. Bait him. If he closes quick enough the Su-27's off bore-sight IR missiles will destroy a mirage in a dogfight. Listen, I only make these observation because most of what i see is jousting. Two opponents with minimal course deviation firing whenever they can (something I've been guilty of too). I hardly see pole maneuvers, bracketing, disengaging, or anything hinting at a general strategy. Clearly the SU-27 doesn't excel at these situations against the mirage, so maybe its time to adapt a new tactic.

Yes I worded it incorrectly, launching then notching is impossible unless you have a +90 deg gimbal limit is the point I was making, do you understand what a notch is?

The rest you are basically saying behave like a Su25T which is what I said. In other words defend to the merge because from what i've seen in BF a lot of pilots loose all control of the fight at that point, the problem is the experienced ones won't let you get away with that and that is more my concern than dealing with the average joes.

Using the mirage's FM to avoid missiles is appropriately using the mirage to its strengths, I see no problem here. However take note next time at how much IAS you lose in those maneuvers... Would you engage again?

You haven't understood. The point in avoiding a shot head on is to maintain a lock while the bandit must maintain a lock on you or go defensive, there is no need for engaging again because you are always on the offensive.

I dunno about the gimbal limits, if my memory doesnt fail me the flanker does actually have +/- 70 degrees where the RDI runs with 60+/-.

 

Radar gimbal in the Su-27 IRL is 70 degrees...

The Flanker, MiG29 and F-15 gimbal limits in DCS are +/-60 degrees.

Why is everyone talking like the Su27 is completely neutered and incapable of winning any fight in Blue Flag? All this hyperbole flying around is not getting anyone anywhere.

Why is everyone talking like the Su27 is completely neutered and incapable of winning any fight in Blue Flag? All this hyperbole flying around is not getting anyone anywhere.

You think.

there is no reason the SU-27 should ever loose to a mirage.

Yes I worded it incorrectly, launching then notching is impossible unless you have a +90 deg gimbal limit is the point I was making, do you understand what a notch is?

 

The rest you are basically saying behave like a Su25T which is what I said. In other words defend to the merge because from what i've seen in BF a lot of pilots loose all control of the fight at that point, the problem is the experienced ones won't let you get away with that and that is more my concern than dealing with the average joes.

 

 

 

You haven't understood. The point in avoiding a shot head on is to maintain a lock while the bandit must maintain a lock on you or go defensive, there is no need for engaging again because you are always on the offensive.

We all know that the standard DCS missiles are quite bad in FM terms, When the Super530 was first introduced using the basic ED FM it was possibly the worst modern Semi active.

Overall All however, I think in BF we are at a point in balance where things might have an advantage over the other. What i am trying to say is that we are a point of balance where team work will give you the advantage nearly all the time and that is an amazing thing compared to any other server, where people can solo or team up as much as they want with limited effect on the overall mission.

when I fail, I look to see what I could have done differently. Frankly its easier to adapt my tactics than to change copyrighted code from Eagle Dynamics...

Just so this doesn't get glazed over and missed.

Exactly and it is nowhere near as tough as 27R vs 530D.

And the 530 is not nearly as good as the 27ER, so again, the SU 27 needs the best BVR missile (against the 530 and AIM 7), the only medium range IR missile and the best short range IR missile to be competitive? I am not trying to be sarcastic I am legitimately asking.

Pheonix has a good point, a lot of examples given in here are in a vacuum, more like a one on one jousting tournament not a campaign, I never fly BF that way. I will always look to fight at an advantage and if I can’t (and have the opportunity) I will disengage and reset. From my three kills yesterday, two were with the 530; I shot first and my opponents did not make any defensive maneuvers, that has nothing to do with 530 outperforming their missiles, besides one was another Mirage.

Take the airframe problem of the SU 27 and the poor performing 27R, it maybe seems the Flanker at least does need something? The Mirage has very good SA, the F-15 has the best SA (IMO), maybe Datalink for the SU 27 might be a good solution? That said I 100% agree with sirscorpion, the best advantage anyone can get, more than a particular missile, RWR, datalink or a sharp FM is teamwork.

JD

AKA_MattE

And the 530 is not nearly as good as the 27ER, so again, the SU 27 needs the best BVR missile (against the 530 and AIM 7), the only medium range IR missile and the best short range IR missile to be competitive? I am not trying to be sarcastic I am legitimately asking.

I've already touched on that.

I'd say ER would make the Flanker too overpowered.

Pheonix has a good point, a lot of examples given in here are in a vacuum, more like a one on one jousting tournament not a campaign, I never fly BF that way. I will always look to fight at an advantage and if I can’t (and have the opportunity) I will disengage and reset. From my three kills yesterday, two were with the 530; I shot first and my opponents did not make any defensive maneuvers, that has nothing to do with 530 outperforming their missiles, besides one was another Mirage.

 

 

Take the airframe problem of the SU 27 and the poor performing 27R, it maybe seems the Flanker at least does need something? The Mirage has very good SA, the F-15 has the best SA (IMO), maybe Datalink for the SU 27 might be a good solution? That said I 100% agree with sirscorpion, the best advantage anyone can get, more than a particular missile, RWR, datalink or a sharp FM is teamwork.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

I think that is the point most are making here in that the Flanker could do with datalink, that is all, no need for people to go falsely claiming the Flanker should be hands down winning otherwise it is pilot error or wrongly claiming the gimbal limits are better etc.

I've already touched on that.

 

 

 

 

I think that is the point most are making here in that the Flanker could do with datalink, that is all, no need for people to go falsely claiming the Flanker should be hands down winning otherwise it is pilot error or wrongly claiming the gimbal limits are better etc.

Flanker needs its data link.

Data Link for the Flanker is going to happen regardless, with the F18C Link 16, and the F14B Link 4, "I think the AV8 might have a link 16 as well" so yeah data link is not a big deal

I've already touched on that.

 

 

 

 

I think that is the point most are making here in that the Flanker could do with datalink, that is all, no need for people to go falsely claiming the Flanker should be hands down winning otherwise it is pilot error or wrongly claiming the gimbal limits are better etc.

I agree. The ER would more than likely make the 27 too OP. However improving its SA with DL might help the whole situation.

This whole thing isn't about who has better missiles. Its about who has a better package with everything together and how do you balance it and right now the Mirage is winning that fight.

I am not sure ER and datalink is reasonable but one of them both is probably reasonable.

 

From a mirage perspective I dont mind that much. The eagles probably are happier fighting datalink then fighting ERs. Dunno.

Yup, I mean one of them is fine, hence used "or".

Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk