Jump to content

The F-35 Thread


Groove

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 4.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

That's pretty much the point; at least head-on. The F-35 isn't as stealthy on the sides as it is head-on (but the sides aren't too bad. Rather the tail end is relatively unguarded in terms of RCS)

 

If your radar is having a hard time with it, imagine that poor little missile seeker - naturally same goes for AIM-120's.

 

Typhoon: Meteor/ASRAAM ;) But then again I guess a missile's seeker is going to have a very hard time finding a JSF/F-22.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First: what has AIM-120D and AIM-9X to do with F-35 performance? You can have modern missiles on 4th generation fighters also.

 

Two: AESA: of course very nice and very important given the multirole tasks of F-35. It certainly gives you some advantage sin A2A, but not as dramatic as portrayed. Typhoon has a classic radar, but a very, very good one. And by the timeframe the F-35 hits the streets an AESA version can be offered as part of a mid-life upgrade.

 

The missile seeker having a hard time finding the F-35? Well, from the ranges the missile seeker is supposed to come in, I doubt that RCS is still so differential. At least no longer frontal aspect RCS, since jets will be manoevring at that moment.

 

Don't forget Typhoon and the likes are also stuffed wih defensive aids against missile threats, so the F-35's missiles might have a hard time likewise.

 

To my knowledge, Amraam did not yet get the opportunity to be tested in real combat against state-of-the-art, powerful jammers. Suppose there is a problem, than it comes to a heater fight and some turn & burn. That's why even exercises like Red Flag keep practising for those.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a military simmer since 1988, I could see this coming from 1000 miles.

 

Indeed it can’t climb, it can’t turn and it can’t run.

This fat bomb truck is even not enough stealth because the compromise which was made to make it a vertical landing vehicle.

 

The big problem is that it is too late to cancel the project: too much money was invested and too many countries have signed for this disaster project.

 

You can put the F-35 against the eurofighter in a similar exercise and the outcome would be identical.

(even against the cheap F16-CJ block52 the outcome would be the same)

 

There's a CTOL version on the roll:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/airforce/F-35_Test_Fleet_Adds_Conventional_Takeoff_and_Landing_Variant100016831.php

 

Pretty cheaper, I guess, and more affordable for export customers!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two: AESA: of course very nice and very important given the multirole tasks of F-35. It certainly gives you some advantage sin A2A, but not as dramatic as portrayed.

 

The missile seeker having a hard time finding the F-35? Well, from the ranges the missile seeker is supposed to come in, I doubt that RCS is still so differential. At least no longer frontal aspect RCS, since jets will be manoevring at that moment.

 

I'm sorry. Do you actually have a clue as to what you're talking about?

 

Don't forget Typhoon and the likes are also stuffed wih defensive aids against missile threats, so the F-35's missiles might have a hard time likewise.
Don't forget the F-35 is stuffed with defensive aids, SA aids, AND stealth.

 

To my knowledge, Amraam did not yet get the opportunity to be tested in real combat against state-of-the-art, powerful jammers.

 

Know of a missile that has been?

 

Suppose there is a problem, than it comes to a heater fight and some turn & burn. That's why even exercises like Red Flag keep practising for those.
AIM-9X. The missile burns and turns ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GGTharos, I mean that when you actually have shot a missile from <= 10nm, I would be surprised the target's RCS is still a major issue?

 

I understood stealth gives some neat BVR advantage, but now you seem to imply that it is stil relevant at WVR range? (an Amraam goes active at what, 15 NM?) Beyond that (IF the fighters radar was able to engage the stealth aircraft, the missile would still get some updates, no?) And once at closer range, I'm sorry but the RCS advantage WILL have seriously shrunk).

 

Or are you saying that an F-35 towards which an Amraam is speeding just keeps flying straight to keep its most advantageous RCS signature towards the missile?

 

And if everything boils down to AIM-9X, well, as said all along, the F-35 is NOT the only aircraft sporting them.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GGTharos, I mean that when you actually have shot a missile from <= 10nm, I would be surprised the target's RCS is still a major issue?

 

I understood stealth gives some neat BVR advantage, but now you seem to imply that it is stil relevant at WVR range? (an Amraam goes active at what, 15 NM?) Beyond that (IF the fighters radar was able to engage the stealth aircraft, the missile would still get some updates, no?) And once at closer range, I'm sorry but the RCS advantage WILL have seriously shrunk).

 

Sure, but why would I at this point care about a non-BVR engagement? It's not where the F-35's edge lays. And if you consider RCS issues, when you have a missile radar seeker needing to get within 2-3 NM to lock on, you are running into a smaller kill box, which is a smaller Pk, ETC.

 

Or are you saying that an F-35 towards which an Amraam is speeding just keeps flying straight to keep its most advantageous RCS signature towards the missile?

 

You misunderstand frontal RCS. He does NOT have to fly straight into the incoming missile. He can simply make a 30 deg course change and exit the shrunken search zone.

 

Further, because of the RCS reduction, his countermeasures will work better.

 

And if everything boils down to AIM-9X, well, as said all along, the F-35 is NOT the only aircraft sporting them.

 

No, but a stealth aircraft is more likely to arrive with a positional advantage to use its missiles, and more SA as well, which overall increases its chances. The AIM-9X will simply end the fight without a need for excessive turning.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other thing: About the ECCM capabilities of active missiles: To do such measures it (might) require a lot more power. For a missile, power is a very crucial fact, which also determines its radius. How much does an AIM-120

is equipped with batteries? If not so, then fired from a distance, these ECCM techniques can cost the missile itself.

[sIGPIC]http://www.forum.lockon.ru/signaturepics/sigpic5279_1.gif[/sIGPIC]

I could shot down a Kitchen :smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why use power when you can use brains and frequency hopping and tricks to make that jammer and even better target for the missile? ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

maybe the answer to Australia's air defense worry is a few patriots or S300's id like to see some one doge a few of those big mama's flying at you lol

 

any way to some up are they a good purchase for the future?

HP TouchSmart IQ816 / 25.5" HD touch screen / 9600GS 512/ Core 2 Duo 2.16 / 4GB RAM / VISTA 64 / CH Fighterstick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why use power when you can use brains and frequency hopping and tricks to make that jammer and even better target for the missile? ;)

 

I know few principles of jamming (and therefore the difference between noise jamming and "smart" jamming) but ANY measures you do, it does require more power - until you don't turn off the seeker's own radiation and use some tricky way of homing, while beg for the jammer to keep it noisy...

 

Anyway, this ECM vs ECCM thing is cool, but after a point it becomes a pointles counter-counter-counter-counter-counter problem, so if I were a missile designer (sorry for dreaming) I would not put such a risk for the possibility of catching and matching an exact way of jamming, and guiding the missile only by this way... And until I do that, I need those emissions of the seeker to home on the target...

  • Like 1

[sIGPIC]http://www.forum.lockon.ru/signaturepics/sigpic5279_1.gif[/sIGPIC]

I could shot down a Kitchen :smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know what you are trying to say, and because the discussion in detail is just too long and exactly as you said, pointless (not in reality, but in argumentation) - I'll basically say this:

 

The purpose of ECM is to degrade the enemy's sensors so they cannot do ANYTHING to/with you at all. The purpose of ECCM is to degrade ECM.

 

Ignoring possibilities where the ECM or ECCM is so good that the other guy's stuff plain does nothing, ECM will basically always degrade an ECCM equipped system - ie. Pk goes down, but remains above zero.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although the individual antennae (sp?) of fighters are too small to be of use for locating targets autonomously with the longer wavelengths discussed in that article, presumably it would be possible to (in the same way that some of the longer wavelength search radars are now accurate enough to direct a SAM to the terminal phase) go back (to the future - forwards) to the old Ground Control system where targets are tracked by the Ground controller, planes are directed, missiles are launched under GC instruction. Here the mid course corrections for missiles are supplied not by the planes own radar but by the ground controller (perhaps relayed by the launcher - but perhaps not). - meaning the launching plane doesn't need to turn its radar on to search or launch, making its detection that much harder (no detecting the bogey's radar on your RWR before you get him on your screen), and launches that much harder to detect (No tracking by the launcher, so notice of a launch only once the missile is either detected by the target's radar or it goes active)

 

or

 

- a bigger technological step would be (given advances in GPS, IRST & datalinking) to either use a high power (distant from the targets) ground based transmitter(s) chirping long wavelength signals according to a known algorithm, and a number of (closer to the targets) planes (using their receivers or dipoles distributed around the aircraft) to jointly form a synthetic aperture for a receiver, or conversely use their transmitters as a distributed array / synthetic aperture for beamforming to generate a scanning LWL beam & the same planes forming a synthetic aperture for image creation.

The result would be capable of good angular/range separation, be passive in the first instance (as the planes are not transmitting or using "RADAR", but are forming an optical image from the reflections of the ground based transmitters beam) & capable of operating over frequencies that would defeat low observability aircraft...

Such an image could be used to direct missiles BVR (provided the array can be maintained during combat), and at a range where the individual planes own radar are capable of taking over tracking, they could do so.

 

NASA had synthetic aperture radars doing ground mapping from planes in the 80's. This is a much bigger technical problem - but it's all just processing, and processing power doubles every 6 months (?)

Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's more than just processing; don't ignore the following factors:

 

a) money

b) geolocation

c) system availability

d) mission execution

 

The things you're thinking of are physically possible, but not necessarily practical.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...