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This is one thing that Prien & Rodeike got wrong: the G series had them from factory, and K series got them only on the first machines, as it was dropped from production at request of Daimler-Benz.

 

 

Any sources for that?

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Besides engine rating, it would be interesting to know which airframe condition the would represent: early batches with canopy antenna mast, no main wheel well doors, and fixed tail wheel, or late batches with all the aerodynamic improvements intended from start.

 

From what i have read, mainwheel cover removal and fixed (long) tailwheel were field mods. There's also few ones fitted with G-type short tailwheel but they should be very rare.

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This is one thing that Prien & Rodeike got wrong: the G series had them from factory, and K series got them only on the first machines, as it was dropped from production at request of Daimler-Benz.

 

As a sidenote, there is the possibility that also 1942 Schlacht Bf 109Es got them, as this device was initially tested in that variant (see VB 109 08 T 41 Abschaltung der Flügelkühler Me 109 E v.22.4.41)

 

Really? That is the book I'm relying on. I bought it about 20 years ago when I was very interested in parsing through 109 myths and facts.

 

Why did Daimler-Benz request that the radiator shutoff be dropped from production?

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From what i have read, mainwheel cover removal and fixed (long) tailwheel were field mods. There's also few ones fitted with G-type short tailwheel but they should be very rare.

 

It was more due production shortage of necessary parts than through field mods.

 

Radiator shutoff valves were built in from the F-series (not the early F-1) to the K-series. The spare parts lists (F,G and K-series) and handbooks lists them.

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It was more due production shortage of necessary parts than through field mods.

 

 

That's very possible with main wheel covers but i've read that tail wheel was fixed to down position in field at many cases because of problems with it caused by poor conditions of airfields etc.

 

Gavagai, Prien & Rodeike book is good but contains some out-dated information by now.

JaPo books "Messerschmitt Bf 109 K", "Messerschmitt Bf 109 K camouflage & markings" are very good in my opinion.


Edited by DB 605

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Awesome sound of DB 605 D:

 

http://youtu.be/CnpC_BcK7xY:))

 

Woohoo!!! Sounds good :)

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Couple scans from JaPo "Messerschmitt Bf 109 K" book, showing differences between early and late model and landing gear structure.

 

k4001.jpg

 

k4002.jpg

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Yep, conflicting resources everywhere, changes of designations and technical specifications all the time. Got 5 datasets for the D, 3 agree on maximum power, 2 pairs agree on full throttle altitudes, 2 agree on the boost, all 5 agree on C3. The K-4 manual, next page to the one posted, in the only one to implicate the use of B4, which may very well have become acceptable later in the war.

Same thing about the DM, hardly used, maybe relabelled quickly. Standard engines in the K-4 were DB and DC. Since the K-4 handbook says what it does, it was probably correct at the time.

 

The D series engines were long a development, they evolved through times and so did their specs.

 

The early ones (D/E/F) seems to have been an extension of the A/B/C starting out in 1942, but running on C-3 with marginally higher take off output of 1550 PS and rated altitude.

 

Hence why the DB 605AM was originally designated DB 605G.

 

I believe the D-2 series were based on these early series but with the larger supercharger of the 603A, as in the 605AS series. The early DM of 1800 PS output seems to be the D-2 with methnaol, hence DM. The manuals seem to only refer to C3 + MW operation, but given that this was the same on the AM engines, which was later eased and B4 + MW was allowed for in emergencies, I believe the case must have been similar in the case of the early DM too.

 

The DB / DC interchangable series seems to be somewhat different, the DB was for either B4 or C3 (the latter was dropped without MW), but the DB could clearly operate on B4 + MW. The 1.8ata settings for the DB sans MW seems to have been dropped in early 1945.

 

The DC was always using C3, either on 1,8 ata max boost settings (Grundeinstellung) or 1,98ata max boost settings. The available sources indicate that DB cleared 1.98ata in late 1944 without authorization from the RLM, and this was recalled until further testing in January 1945. II/JG 11 was performing operational trials to fix issues (which seem to be spark plug related) with the rating from February, while the 19 March 1945 order from Gen. Jagdflieger cleared the 1.98ata and ordered its use by (at least) four Me 109 Gruppen of JG 27 and 53, operating on the Western Front.

 

There were several boost / fuel combinations, as seen in the late 1944 DB/DC manual, the relevant tables having been posted on my site:

 

DB605DB_limits_dec44Motorenkarte.jpg

DB605DC_limits_dec44Motorenkarte.jpg

 

Regarding the 109K model, IMHO its very important to note that the aircraft had a major difference compared to the earlier G series: the elevator travel range was decreased, hence mechanical advantage of the pilot was increased, resulting in lessened elevator stick forces.


Edited by Kurfürst
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http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

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The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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Glad someone opened up a 109 thread. Interesting reading, I was worried that the 109 might be at a disadvantage, but it looks like she'll be roughly on par with the other aircraft being introduced (though obviously not the Me-262).

 

Well Spit IX is a bit slower and less good at climb but it still have advantage at turnfight. K4 and D9 being about equal to allied planes, only Me 262 will have real advantages against allies but it will have some disadvantages too.

 

I imagine the 262 would have reliability problems with those engines right? That could help keep some of the numbers down on them, as if you really want to fly her you have to deal with the possibility of losing an engine or both. Hopefully they also model the engine flameouts if one isn't light on the throttle changes. If you have someone hop on straight from FC3 thinking they will just be flying a slower F-15, that could result in some comical dogfights and raging as their engines keep flaming out.

 

Well, its quite difficult to implement superiority in numbers in a multiplayer environment, which from a gameplay standpoint, needs to be balanced. :smartass:

I am actually looking forward to the awesome challenge that is facing off against a 262 in a Mustang! joystick.gif :pilotfly:

 

edit: I can barely fly the Mustang, so even a parked 262 will be a challenge for me.. :megalol:

 

I can fly the Mustang fine but when it comes to Mustang gunnery at the moment I couldn't hit water if I fell out of a boat, so basically same situation. Have been using a four ship of Hueys for target practice. I'm getting better, each time I'm getting more metal on target. Though at the moment the only time I consistently bring them down is through the occasional unintended midair love taps with my Mustang when I'm darting through the group.

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Glad to see you here at the ED forums :) Looking forward to you sharing your 109 knowledge :D

 

Thanks! :) A flyable 109K modelled in great detail is just too tempting. :)

 

Given that DCS, from what I hear tends to model every system (even ones that combat flight sims normally would not bother) it would be cool to see the duel purpose rear tank of the 109K (filled either with ca 80 liters MW or 115 liters of fuel).

 

There was a switch in the canopy to select between the two purposes, as one would fill the contents of the light alloy rear tank into the fuel tank and the other into the eye of the supercharger. The switch could be turned to the bad position accidentally though, which was a complain from the units - generally, pressure-filling the fuel tank with water-methanol mixture was somewhat detrimental to engine life...

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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Why should an a/c be modeled on supposition? There has been no proof that 1,98ata was actually used.

 

Now 4 Gruppen sounds like a lot of a/c but as of April 4 1945,

 

I./JG27 had 13 serviceable a/c

III./JG27 had 15 serviceable a/c

III./JG53 had 24 serviceable a/c

IV./JG53 had 27 operational a/c

 

or in total 79 operational a/c out of an establishment of 160 a/c (40 a/c per Gruppe). These 79 a/c are only 13% of all serviceable Bf109s in the Luftwaffe.

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There has been no proof that 1,98ata was actually used.

 

That is incorrect, the KTBs of the relevant unit leave no doubt about the use of 1,98ata engine settings.

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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A couple of interesting points for modelling from 109K-4 operating instructions (Bedienungsvorschrift) of October 1944 (published January 1945).

 

Both the elevator trim and the elevator gear ratios were changed compared to 109G to make them lighter. The relevant parts have been marked with red rectangles.

 

Translation:

 

3. Stabilisers and control surfaces

 

Rudder without horn balance, with Flettner tabs. Rudder with reduced trailing edge"

 

"Cantilever horizontal and adjustable tailplane; increased gearing compared to Bf 109 G."

 

Mechanical indicator of the horizontal tailplane setting in the left wall of the cocpit"

 

"To reduce stick forces, modified elevator control kinematics"

109K_Okt44_lightenedelevatorandflosse_marked.thumb.png.4eb8e0a9ef47f3ea70c69b8b60a94474.png

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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Radiator cutoff system of 109K (in case of perforation of radiator).

 

From Ersatzteiliste 109K, Rumpfwerk, Juli 1944.

109K_Kul44_radiator_cutoff_1.thumb.png.54ab723743df19dc1c7c254a0fba6650.png

109K_Kul44_radiator_cutoff_2.thumb.png.62fd8e4f664b35c9875960f1d6e7c10b.png

109K_Kul44_radiator_cutoff_3.thumb.png.edf177cdca81dd0cd25e130f439b6511.png

109K_Kul44_radiator_cutoff_4.thumb.png.63f519f2efbbd4bc24e0a1f55aa24ee4.png

109K_Kul44_radiator_cutoff_5.thumb.png.d39df78826d8db9e19234737d7c35fbf.png

109K_Kul44_radiator_cutoff_6.thumb.png.e72020087195914c5b895261805556a0.png

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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A couple of interesting points for modelling from 109K-4 operating instructions (Bedienungsvorschrift) of October 1944 (published January 1945).

 

Both the elevator trim and the elevator gear ratios were changed compared to 109G to make them lighter. The relevant parts have been marked with red rectangles.

 

Translation:

 

3. Stabilisers and control surfaces

 

Rudder without horn balance, with Flettner tabs. Rudder with reduced trailing edge"

 

"Cantilever horizontal and adjustable tailplane; increased gearing compared to Bf 109 G."

 

Mechanical indicator of the horizontal tailplane setting in the left wall of the cocpit"

 

"To reduce stick forces, modified elevator control kinematics"

 

Very interesting, thanks for posting them. Could these changes caused the "over sensitive feeling" on stick at high altitudes, as some pilots said on interviews?

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I would like to say few words about cockpit of Kurfirst:

 

3D model is amazing, I can't wait to sit into this cockpit!

 

c1f561a3e65502f5d2cd9a0a93c72149_large.jpg

 

I know, it is WIP screen, but as for colors I think it is too much dark. I know it was painted RLM 66 (grey-black).. but every modeller know, that in scale one cannot use exact shade of original color but this color should be lightened in order details are clearly visible and overall impression acceptable for human eyes.

 

So I think the color of the Bf 109K cockpit should be lightened because LCDs are much smaller than the size of real cockpits.

 

See examples of two cockpits (scale 1:32) - both imitate RLM 66 - which gives better impression?

 

1) Original shade of RLM 66

 

img_0007.jpg?w=600&h=464

 

bf109_swiss_11-07-12-7.jpg?w=600&h=385

 

2) Lightened RLM 66 (appropriately in scale)

 

bf109g232bg_15.jpg


Edited by tapi

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Is the poor manufacturing quality of the K-4 going to be modeled?

 

..an extract from Lorant/Goyat "Bataille dans le ciel d'Allemagne" ...(a translation)

 

At Kleinkarolinenfeld, around ten pilots who no longer had aircraft piled into a truck at dawn on 27 April 1945 in order to drive to the airfield at Bad Wörishofen and take delivery of Messerschmitt 109s fresh out of the factories. Fw. Arnulf Meyer (9. Staffel) never forgot the scenes they witnessed that day:

 

Rows of Messerschmitt 109s and Focke-Wulf 190s lined up around the airfield perimeter, others out in the open (!) under the odd camouflage net. Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel… At least one hundred fighters from the assembly lines were dispersed around the field. The Officer that met us showed us the latest sub-types to be delivered: Focke-Wulfs with in-line engines and in particular the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, an improved sub-type of our “Gustav” model. There was bustling activity on the field. Aircraft were landing and taking off constantly. There was no airfield protection Rotte in the air. Our surprise was even greater when we were told that thirty brand new aircraft were due to arrive at the depot that day if the necessary pilots to ferry them in could be found. We were presented to the airfield commander who had set up his office in a comfortably appointed wooden shack: a fatherly Major who gave us a pleasant welcome. Of course we wanted to take the Bf 109 Ks… He asked us for our papers indicating our various type ratings but after scrutinizing them, he handed them back with a shake of the head and simply said: “sorry, I can’t give you any K-4s. You’ve only flown the G-10, so take the G-10s!”

 

We tried to explain to him that whether they were the G or K variant, they were still Messerschmitt 109s and any mods were almost certainly to be of a minor nature, unlikely to impact on the handling qualities of the aircraft. He did not appear particularly convinced by our arguments, but I noted how keenly he eyed us smoking our American cigarettes. These were retrieved from US prisoners and our Spieß always had them in his stocks. As naturally as possible, I offered the Major one of these cigarettes. His face lit up. Just for good measure, I left a barely started packet on his desk. He thanked me and told us that he was going to see what he ‘‘could do”. In the minute that followed, more packets of cigarettes changed hands and in this way we soon had authorization to take the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4s!

 

We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. On the other hand the armament magazines were empty. We were given parachutes and life jackets. Suddenly we saw a car drawing up and out climbed the depot commander. He told us in a voice bereft of emotion that he was not sorry that we were taking the 109 Ks. Then he read the text of a teleprinter message he had just received. The presence of American troops and tanks was reported ten kilometers from Bad Wörishofen and he was ordered to immediately destroy all the aircraft housed on the airfield. The Major explained to us that the 109s were easier to blow up than the 190s, as they carried as standard a delayed-action 3 kg explosive charge in the fuselage housed next to the fuselage fuel tank. We smoked a last cigarette together with the officer. The imminent debacle seemed more of a relief to him than anything else. He had fought during the First World War and had been wounded but was of the opinion that the disaster befalling our country was of a much more serious nature on this occasion. He hoped that we would soon be back among our families and that we would not risk our lives pointlessly. He started up his car and drove off.

 

My first takeoff in the Bf 109 K held no surprises. The aircraft was poorly trimmed and the compass was not functioning, which meant that I had to follow my comrades blindly. A typical product of our war industry in 1945: the instruments were incorrectly calibrated and there was nothing coming through the oxygen mask. Fortunately our flight level did not exceed 1,000 meters. We all landed without incident at Kleinkarolinenfeld. Happily enough the brakes worked…

 

Please note these pilot were from III./JG53

 

Also, they had only flown Bf109G-10s when III./JG53 was supposed to be equipped with the K-4.

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Ummmm, no thanks, I'm not interested in experiencing the state of the Luftwaffe in April 1945, unless it's some kind of campaign scenario. Everyone already knows this anyway, why drag it up? I want the aircraft as it might have been in 1944, thanks.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Ummmm, no thanks, I'm not interested in experiencing the state of the Luftwaffe in April 1945, unless it's some kind of campaign scenario. Everyone already knows this anyway, why drag it up? I want the aircraft as it might have been in 1944, thanks.

 

No 1.98ata K-4s in 1944.

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