IR seeker head audibly alerts with rail power off - why?

The F5 provides power to hardpoints based on the switch selection in the armament panel. The pilot cannot jettison or release weapons without their respective switches flipped up, and indeed the pilot cannot fire weapons if the “selective positions” jettison switch is enabled.

Why then is the IR seeker head of the wingtip missiles energized and provides an audible tone, when the guns/missiles safe switch is set to “arm”, even when the respective wingtip rails are not energizedon the armament panel? If the “guns/missile” safe switch is set to arm, but the wingtip hardpoints aren’t energized, you can’t fire the missile! But you do hear the seeker head growl?!

Logically you would expect that with the guns/missile arm switch ON, but the rails not selected/energized, then one should be able to fire the guns, without hearing the constant “growl” - only hearing it when the safe switch AND the wingtip hardpoints are armed and energized.

But we get the seeker head growl whenever the guns/missile safe switch is armed - regardless! Why?

Can someone explain this to me?

... we get the seeker head growl whenever the guns/missile safe switch is armed - regardless! Why?

Can someone explain this to me?

Not altogether sure, but I remember this post:

Actually I think the tiger's pipper should follow the uncaged seeker head. Thats what I had to test when I was weapons maintenance on the swiss F-5.

 

Someone would stand outside, shine a torch into the seeker head and I had to sit in the cockpit, press uncage and see, if the pipper moves in the same way that the guy moves the torch (the IR signature of a torch is enough, from a lighter as well for that matter, but only up to about 20 meters). Now I dont know if the swiss version is that much different, but it doesn't have any different aiming system that the standard US one.

 

So as far as I know, it should have a moving MSL pipper. (the guy in the article is talking about the F-4 not having that feature, right?)

Aim9P To cage or uncage thread

But we get the seeker head growl whenever the guns/missile safe switch is armed - regardless! Why?

Can someone explain this to me?

This one has has been kicked around a little bit, here is a good example, post 28 starts the discussion. (Thread features SUI-Mustang, also referenced by Ramsey above). I don’t get the feeling a change is in the cards on this issue...

Well, it makes sense that a tone is heard only after applying electrical power to the weapon and rail.

Manuals’ language can sometimes be confusing and it seems common sense to me that the tone should be heard only after arming and supplying electrical power to the missiles, regardless of which station Left or Right.

To wit we have a maintenance officer saying the same when he used to check the IR tracking of each missile?

Yes, manuals can be unclear. But right in that thread it was an ED team member saying the issue is not a bug by referencing 1F-5E-34-1-1, the non-nuclear weapons delivery manual for the USAF F5E. So unless someone has better documentation, this has been gone over many times.

And not to disparage the opinions of the Swiss technician, but you can go through the whole section of the above referenced document about AN/ASG-31 LCOSS, which is what the BST (now ED I guess) game manual says our F5 has, and never does it mention a pipper that can slew to show where the AIM-9's seeker is looking. (It does seem to say that in MSL mode, with a locked target, the pipper should follow the radar antenna [page 1-47] but I believe that one has been talked into the ground too.) My point, however, is that while I am sure the gentleman is recalling his F5 experience correctly, I don't think it was with our F5's combination of equipment.

I'm not trying to pick a side here, but unless more clear documentation comes up I am just saying this might be a fruitless chase.

Very strange. I wonder the rationale for always having a seeker tone if there is a missile on the left rail, but not the right one (if the right rail is not energized)?

Was discussed before here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=197627&highlight=tone+logic

and confirmed by F-5 drivers. Hoping they fix it sometime.

... unless more clear documentation comes up I am just saying this might be a fruitless chase.

Clearer than

"The audio tone of either missile is activated or shut off by the corresponding wingtip armament position selector switch without arming the missile. With both wingtip switches up, only the tone from left missile is audible."?

Interestingly enough, the quote is from the same manual ED considers to be a reliable source when justifying the RWR logic.

It’s also downright annoying on a groundstrafing run, for instance.

AFAIK there is a volume knob.

"The audio tone of either missile is activated or shut off by the corresponding wingtip armament position selector switch without arming the missile. With both wingtip switches up, only the tone from left missile is audible."?

This is not only in the manual, but what logic is there behind hearing a screeching sidewinder tone just because we have guns and camera selected? What pilot wouldnt find that distracting when strafing some buffaloes down low?

If we don't have the pylons selected on armament panel, how can we even hear the sidewinder tone? That sound is directly from the missiles seeker head (that is connected through the pylon)!

With the same logic we should have a GAR-8 sidewinder tone in F-86F Sabre when GUNS are selected. I don't know for sure, but why would Northrop feed unwanted audio into the pilots ears by bypassing the station selector switches?

I am no Tiger II expert, but I would love to know the reasoning behind the current implementation in DCS.

I'm not entirely sure, but the difference between the F-5 and the F-86 might be because the F-5 has two mostly independent armament circuits, one for the underwing and centerline pylons, another for the wingtip pylons and guns. If the Saber only arms guns, it would explain why there's no tone.

Clearer than

 

 

"The audio tone of either missile is activated or shut off by the corresponding wingtip armament position selector switch without arming the missile. With both wingtip switches up, only the tone from left missile is audible."?

 

Interestingly enough, the quote is from the same manual ED considers to be a reliable source when justifying the RWR logic.

As I literally said, I don’t have a side in this and these same conversations with the same references have been going on since the inception of the F5, to no effect. I was merely pointing out that without something new, this is merely us banging our heads against a collective wall because this has been gone over. The ball is in the dev’s court for better or worse.

As I literally said, I don’t have a side in this and these same conversations with the same references have been going on since the inception of the F5, to no effect. I was merely pointing out that without something new, this is merely us banging our heads against a collective wall because this has been gone over. The ball is in the dev’s court for better or worse.

No argument, of course. Just that it does not get any clearer than this.

As a sidenote, I would ask the devs: demonstrate where in any manual is stated that the 'Guns, Missile & Camera' switch controls the audibility of the AIM-9 tone.

No argument, of course. Just that it does not get any clearer than this.

I agree, hopefully some day there will be some resolution to this question.