Spitfire first take-off; first "landing" observations

ok, i got it.

Since i have done only few flights i wasnt paying attention on some really basical stuff and my brain didnt got some peculiar things about the aircraft... probably i was too focused on the landing circuit which was too tightin the beginning (my bad ! :D )

I relized that the trim rearing does not exists, what is giving me that "strange behaviour perception" is just when i lower the flaps: in that moment the birds has a quite violent reaction...

I was especting that lowering gears, but not with the flaps.

Well anticipating that with ALOT of trim up just resolved the issue.

Thanks to all the peeps that tryed to argue/help: really it was just my bad perception.

Anyway now, trimming the plane right, coming down a bit slower and just acting gently but firmly solved most of my problems.

Well strong wind is still too hard for me :pilotfly:

i feel noob (and good) :thumbup:

Yo-Yo, it's all good advice, but while we're at it, about the "crazy yaw reaction" to rudder trim mentioned above, would you mind cranking down the rudder trim wheel response, and cranking up elevator trim wheel response a little? That would help a lot to those of us, who operate these wheels by keys/buttons. Right now the rudder wheel is too damn twitchy, while elevator wheel is painfully slooooooooooooow. Something in-between (like in the Mustang) would be perfect :D.

:thumbup:

I can confirm that those of us using hat switches to make incremental changes to trim would benefit from a greater resolution on the rudder and perhaps a little less on the elevator; currently one click of hat switch on the rudder trim produces large input and longitudinal oscillation that dampens out but it quite often results in it being very difficult to centre the trim; the turn and slip is often slightly out and a corrective trim input merely changes the side at which you are slipping!

 

Meanwhile it can take what feels like an age to trim pitch and requires holding the hat switch for several seconds in order to gain even a small amount of deflection on the indicator.

 

To summarize I guess at the moment the trims feel very unharmonized.

:thumbup:

I really do not see any "crazy yaw reaction"... what do you mean? Both trimmers go full travel for about 7 seconds.

:wassat: No they're not - it's 4 seconds for full rudder trim travel, and 40 (!) seconds for elevator trim. Tested in 2.1.1, but it's been like that in both version since release, the issue brought up by numerous users many times, so I'm very surprised to read your reply.

For comparison, in Mustang both are about 8.5 seconds.

I don't need the trims in Spit to be exactly as responsive to button/key inputs as in the Mustang, but twice faster rudder trim is just too much for precise adjustments, while almost five times slower elevator trim is way too slow.

ok, i got it.

 

Since i have done only few flights i wasnt paying attention on some really basical stuff and my brain didnt got some peculiar things about the aircraft... probably i was too focused on the landing circuit which was too tightin the beginning (my bad ! :D )

 

I relized that the trim rearing does not exists, what is giving me that "strange behaviour perception" is just when i lower the flaps: in that moment the birds has a quite violent reaction...

I was especting that lowering gears, but not with the flaps.

 

Well anticipating that with ALOT of trim up just resolved the issue.

 

Thanks to all the peeps that tryed to argue/help: really it was just my bad perception.

 

Anyway now, trimming the plane right, coming down a bit slower and just acting gently but firmly solved most of my problems.

 

Well strong wind is still too hard for me :pilotfly:

 

i feel noob (and good) :thumbup:

I hope you are not using flaps for anything except landing. Those 'barn door' flaps were only intended for increased drag, some small lift gain and pitch attitude change. I sometimes see guys taking off with Spitfrire flaps down. It's not realistic behaviour. :rolleyes:

By the way, the instant action takeoff has a large crosswind component from, I think, 20 degrees starboard. Try making a simple mission with no wind or a direct headwind down the runway.

Yo-Yo, it's all good advice, but while we're at it, about the "crazy yaw reaction" to rudder trim mentioned above, would you mind cranking down the rudder trim wheel response, and cranking up elevator trim wheel response a little? That would help a lot to those of us, who operate these wheels by keys/buttons. Right now the rudder wheel is too damn twitchy, while elevator wheel is painfully slooooooooooooow. Something in-between (like in the Mustang) would be perfect :D.

PLEASE make sure that any change relates only to the key/hat inputs. The axis adjustment is sensitive but ok.

:wassat: No they're not - it's 4 seconds for full rudder trim travel, and 40 (!) seconds for elevator trim. Tested in 2.1.1, but it's been like that in both version since release, the issue brought up by numerous users many times, so I'm very surprised to read your reply.

It's odd that YoYo has a completely different time than you do for this.

Are the devs even aware of how the machines are modelled in the version we actually play?

I hope you are not using flaps for anything except landing. Those 'barn door' flaps were only intended for increased drag, some small lift gain and pitch attitude change. I sometimes see guys taking off with Spitfrire flaps down. It's not realistic behaviour. :rolleyes:

 

By the way, the instant action takeoff has a large crosswind component from, I think, 20 degrees starboard. Try making a simple mission with no wind or a direct headwind down the runway.

yes, i am "garage flaps" just to land :pilotfly:

btw i am going to construct a cusmon joystick with 4 potentiometer (2 fro trim and 2 for gun stuff)

becouse i think it is alot better trim the aircraft in that way... my hat switch pov trim button addiction may be bad this time.

I wonder if Yo-Yo uses some joystick with rotaries for his flight testing? There's no way he can get 7 seconds full trim tab movement when assigning the function to keys/hat/buttons. It's always been 4 & 40 seconds since the module release.

I wonder if Yo-Yo uses some joystick with rotaries for his flight testing? There's no way he can get 7 seconds full trim tab movement when assigning the function to keys/hat/buttons. It's always been 4 & 40 seconds since the module release.

I can't make tracks and post, but perhaps someone could make a track of the elevator trim wheel movement to show Yo-Yo that many of us do not get full movement in anything like 7 seconds!

(I use button on my TWCS throttle for trim and do not have any axis available for trim).

Elevator trim is painfully slow, slow, slow Yo-Yo. Please check this issue.

Thank you in anticipation.

Happy landings,

No need to record tracks, he can use default key assignments for trims in either public 1.5.6 or 2.1.1 and see for himself.

"Wishful thinking" version - maybe he uses now some internal game build, which has the response times "fixed" already :D?

I'd hazard a guess and say 100 steps for elevator and 100 steps for rudder might be a good compromise.

Me too. I'd like the rudder trim, at least that one, a bit finer to set. It looks coarse to me the way it is now, and since the rudder tightening with "q" is not yet active ( in the TODO list though, as Yo-Yo confirmed ) adjusting the rudder trim inflight can create some "bouncing"...

so, what do you prefer: less precise pitch trim or more precise rudder trim?

This kind of issue exists on many button-controlled axes in various aircraft. In some cases the cockpit control rotates so fast that you cannot achieve an accurate setting, in others it's excruciatingly slow. It would be nice if there were some kind of user control over these "speeds": Unfortunately that won't be easy to achieve, as different programmers have used different approaches to set the "speed". In a few cases I was able to change it via the "gain" parameter in the file "clickabledata". That's not an approach I'd recommend though. In others it can be easily changed in the "default.lua". For example the P-51 gunsight Target Span and Range to Target:

--K-14 GunSight
{pressed = device_commands.Button_14, cockpit_device_id  = devices.K14_GUNSIGHT, value_pressed = 0.1,   name = _('Gunsight target span Increase'), category = _('K-14 gunsight')}, -- HWF: original value = 0.5
{pressed = device_commands.Button_14, cockpit_device_id  = devices.K14_GUNSIGHT, value_pressed = -0.1,   name = _('Gunsight target span Decrease'), category = _('K-14 gunsight')}, -- HWF: original value = -0.5

{pressed = device_commands.Button_2, cockpit_device_id  = devices.K14_GUNSIGHT, value_pressed = 0.1,     name = _('Gunsight range to target Increase'), category = _('K-14 gunsight')}, -- HWF: original value = 0.7
{pressed = device_commands.Button_2, cockpit_device_id  = devices.K14_GUNSIGHT, value_pressed = -0.1,     name = _('Gunsight range to target Decrease'), category = _('K-14 gunsight')},-- HWF: original value = -0.7

This little change slows the rate of change down and enables me to set the sight the way I want it. In my opinion that programmer chose a smart approach as it facilitates maintenance.

Unfortunately the trim speed on the Spit doesn't work that way; the command is ON/OFF. I cannot change it in clickabledata.lua. This is really a handicap for the Spit especially as most of us don't have spare axes.

If keyboard is used it sends about 10 clicks per seconds. Pitch trim has about 250 steps to have trimming smooth and rudder trim has only ~25. So, having the same frequency from the keyboard you will have exactly 10:1 for the full travel times...

 

I have not seen our Input Guru, but it seems to me that the events from the keyboard and buttons go with the same time rate... so, what do you prefer: less precise pitch trim or more precise rudder trim?

I would prefer both :D. As in P-51 and Bf-109. OK, maybe not exactly the same as in these planes, and not even the same for rudder and elevator, because we know how much more elevator-sensitive the Spit is, so elevator trim must be somewhat more precise than rudder one, I'm OK with that. I think 10:1 is too much of a difference, though.

Now elevator trim is just more slow than really needed for precise adjustments in cruise, and way too slow for comfortable adjustments before landing (against strong pitch moment changes caused by gear and flaps). At the same time very fast rudder trim is not that necessary and makes fine adjustments more difficult compared to Mustang. Yes, the issue affects only people using non-analog inputs for trims.

How many steps and clicks/sec. do Mustang and 109 use by the way? If we knew that as a reference point, it would be easier to estimate how many is good for the Spit.

Thank You for further investigation!

I just got my Spitfire! Man I thought the BF 109 was hard!!? The Spit is waaaaaay harder...It never got past -2 to 0 Boost power and it always swings to the left (even with my rudder trimmed full right) - and a right wing strike. Is that the problem with the flight model or the joystick axis?? It works fine even on the P-51 or even BF109. I never even got past 2000 rpm and then the wild swing kicked in.

Joystick/pedals/whatever. The rudder on this plane is most efficient of them all, but because of that (+lack of tailwheel lock), it requires much faster and more precise control. Spend more time tuning rudder axis curve and you'll get it (also mind you, the default instant takeoff mission has some crosswind in it, making takeoffs a bit more difficult than needed).

Joystick/pedals/whatever. The rudder on this plane is most efficient of them all, but because of that (+lack of tailwheel lock), it requires much faster and more precise control. Spend more time tuning rudder axis curve and you'll get it (also mind you, the default instant takeoff mission has some crosswind in it, making takeoffs a bit more difficult than needed).

But at least in the DCS Sptifire you can consistently make use of aileron ( full right ) and rudder + rudder trim for takeoff. Just like pilot notes comment, full right aileron at the beginning of the takeoff acceleration, and right rudder...

In the air the Spitfire is also very sensible to power changes, and you must be prepared to trim as required.

With the upcoming fine tuning of rudder forces, it'll get simply Perfect!

I just got my Spitfire! Man I thought the BF 109 was hard!!? The Spit is waaaaaay harder...It never got past -2 to 0 Boost power and it always swings to the left (even with my rudder trimmed full right) - and a right wing strike. Is that the problem with the flight model or the joystick axis?? It works fine even on the P-51 or even BF109. I never even got past 2000 rpm and then the wild swing kicked in.

Sounds to me like your tail wheel is not straight.

1. If you are taxiing on to the runway prior to takeoff, make sure you smoothly exit the turn and roll forward a few yards before stopping or powering up. Otherwise your tailwheel will be pointing from the way you have just come and as soon as you power up it will kick you off to that side.

2. Ensure that your rudder controls are mapped to a single axis only - I know it sounds 'well, DUH' but it has happened before... ;)

3. You only need +8lb of boost to generate enough power for a prompt and controllable takeoff - if you go all the way on the throttle you'll be at +16lb and at war emergency power and rather over-egging it...

4. Don't stand on the rudder, but have a little bit of right in as you power up and jab in the corrections with short sharp controlled punches as required.

LOL.. yea I know but I still do it anyway...it makes me feel prepared for the swing.

Right aileron (and any aileron input) at the start of roll is absolutely useless (but harmless, anyway :)) because of no authority because of low speed and absence of prop downwash.

It's just procedural Yo-Yo... Of course it's useless at the very start, but as speed / "q" build up, I believe it will become useful ?

In another sim, though, I just have to use rudder to counter both the yawing moment, and any rolling tendency in such an high power / high AoA scenario...

Do you mean that stick right ( thx for glimpsing it @klem ! ) is useless through the whole takeoff run ?

As a side note, I also always wonder why some of my fellow glider pilots insist, on some glider models, in using the "technique" of rising the spoiler at the intial takeoff run to make the ailerons more effective as soon as possible while gaining speed.

Also, in all youtubes I have watched, and on all pilot notes I read, full right aileron and rudder is mentioned...

Probably it would be more difficult to our brain to make it happen already during the takeoff run, as the ailerons begin to gain effectiveness...

It's just procedural Yo-Yo... Of course it's useless at the very start, but as speed / "q" build up, I believe it will become useful ?

 

In another sim, though, I just have to use rudder to counter both the yawing moment, and any rolling tendency in such an high power / high AoA scenario...

 

Do you mean that stick left is useless through the whole takeoff run ?

 

As a side note, I also always wonder why some of my fellow glider pilots insist, on some glider models, in using the "technique" of rising the spoiler at the intial takeoff run to make the ailerons more effective as soon as possible while gaining speed.

 

Also, in all youtubes I have watched, and on all pilot notes I read, full right aileron and rudder is mentioned...

 

Probably it would be more difficult to our brain to make it happen already during the takeoff run, as the ailerons begin to gain effectiveness...

I'm sure you mean "stick right".

You can leave it until down the takeoff run when the wings rotate slightly anti-clockwise as the left oleo starts to compress under the torque and the weight begins to come off the u/c. You just have to watch for it.

I set my rudder trim with the word 'Rudder' at about eleven o'clock and manage the main swing on the rudder because it gives less rudder to un-trim, however I use a 10 turn (5 + 5) multiturn pot for trim wheels so whist it is good for trim sensitivity I have more work to do to trim/un-trim. I hope any trim changes for keys won't affect analogue trimwheels.