Help with carrier landing pattern

Hey guys,

I'm scratching my head here...

I watched the videos of the RL F-18 pilot Talionis, and follow those numbers.

I am also using VFA-113 mission (the one with the LSO).

The problem I have is, if I follow the videos and do a downwind at exactly 1.2nm, start a 30 degree turn when I hear "paddles contact", I end up on the groove at 0.5nm and always end up 0.2nm on the port side (unless I correct durign the base turn and bank less than 30 degrees).

I tried different combinations of starting the base turn earlier or later, but I can't find the sweet spot (unless I do the downwind at 1.0nm, then it's spot on..)

Any suggestions / ideas?

Hey guys,

 

I'm scratching my head here...

I watched the videos of the RL F-18 pilot Talionis, and follow those numbers.

I am also using VFA-113 mission (the one with the LSO).

 

The problem I have is, if I follow the videos and do a downwind at exactly 1.2nm, start a 30 degree turn when I hear "paddles contact", I end up on the groove at 0.5nm and always end up 0.2nm on the port side (unless I correct durign the base turn and bank less than 30 degrees).

 

I tried different combinations of starting the base turn earlier or later, but I can't find the sweet spot (unless I do the downwind at 1.0nm, then it's spot on..)

 

Any suggestions / ideas?

How are you getting paddles contact I just get a clearance to land like land based airport lol.

Well, you already spotted what's wrong, so think about how to make it right:

If your final is too short, extend downwind for a second or two.

If your turn is too tight, use less bank.

You should accept 1.2nm and 30AOB as guidelines. It's not strict rule.

How are you getting paddles contact I just get a clearance to land like land based airport lol.

it's a VFA-113 mission file with LSO comms built in.

At the 90 (when you are 90° from BRC) you should start adding a quick look at the boat to your scan so you can adjust your AOB to roll out lined up. Don't expect to stay at 30° all the way to the groove.

Extend your downwind just a hair and keep on doing what you're doing to roll out lined up.

The final turn varies depending on aircraft weight and the speed you hold during the turn. There’s no set formula of numbers that will work every time, you need to adjust your turn at the 90 so you’re crossing the ships wake right at the point it’s disappearing. We are normally 30 degrees from final bearing (260) at this point.

The abeam distance is also a range, not a fixed 1.2 nm. Use the ship youbfly over on downwind to experiment with more or less abeam distance.

When you roll wings level on line-up we recommend you be at 300 feet, onspeed, pitch at 5 degrees and hearing the LSO saying “3/4 mile call the ball”.

If you ignore ‘paddles contact’ and extend downwind ‘a few seconds’ you risk ending up long in the groove and the guy behind you will cut you off on final.

You are in the wrong in this instance which is why the air boss will send you around and clear the path for the guy behind you.

It may seem harsh and tempting to delete the Long In The Groove parameter but if you fly online you will end up with multiple aircraft rolling into the groove at the same time.

Btw, that mission is not so good. Carrier is too slow. That's what makes the problem.

Scripting is excellent though.

Btw, that mission is not so good. Carrier is too slow. That's what makes the problem.

 

Scripting is excellent though.

yeah, but there's an issue with the Hornet/Carrier if the carrier speed or wind over the deck is above 20kts. So until that's fixed, we need to adjust the turn onto final accordingly.

Thanks guys, I agree the carrier should be a bit faster but we have set it to the maximum speed DCS allows the fleet to move.

Only way to increase WOD is to add wind which we found has other negative side effects like pitching deck.

Thanks guys, I agree the carrier should be a bit faster but we have set it to the maximum speed DCS allows the fleet to move.

Only way to increase WOD is to add wind which we found has other negative side effects like pitching deck.

whats negative in a pitching deck :D ?

whats negative in a pitching deck :D ?

nothing, once you've mastered the basics of landing on a relatively stable moving carrier!

I see the point you guys are making, that's definitely something I can do (adjust things here and there) and actually can already fly a decent pattern, I'm just bothered by the fact I cannot seem to do it by the real numbers, which means that the sim is not set-up properly in one aspect or another. Could be the FM modeling which is WIP, or most probably the setup of the carrier (speed, wind etc.).

Let's say I wish that mission makers and servers would strive to setup the carriers in a realistic way, I know there are bugs now so we probably have to wait, but this brings out another important aspect: not only pilot training is important, but also "skipper" training, meaning the focus should also be on how to realistically setup the carrier so that properly trained pilots can fly realistically.

I'd love to hear more from Lex or someone in the know, on the actual carrier speed and wind over deck IRL.

Cool, why don’t you hit ‘Lex’ up in his YouTube comments?

Cool, why don’t you hit ‘Lex’ up in his YouTube comments?

Will do ;)

AOB of 27-30 is not set in stone. When on-speed with the Hornet and anywhere from 1.1-1.3nm abeam, you use anywhere from 27-30 AOB. How do you know how much you need? The closer abeam (1.1) the less AOB you use (27-28), then the farther abeam, the more AOB you're going to need. Let's say you're 1.1 abeam, until you reach the 90, try to keep 27-28 AOB, when you reach the 90, look at the ship and learn the sight picture, does it look like you're going to under or over-shoot? Adjust accordingly. In the end, this will take lots and lots of practice. A month after being helped a lot by a USN guy on discord (I play quite a bit since a couple months due to holiday) I think I now get consistent FAIRs/OKs (mostly FAIRs though), so practice practice practice!

He talks about this in one of his video's I'm quite sure. It's 25 to 30 kts over the deck (down the runway heading) if possible, this is either wind or powered to get 25 to 30 kts, this is also where this burble comes in to play from the carrier island structure when the wind comes straight down the direction of the ship and hits the island creating turbulence.

If you do setup the ship or wind to be less than (25 to 30 kts over deck) than you will need to go further down wind when turning at the abeam, this is because the ship cannot move ahead or the wind cannot push you down wind enough to give you the groove length needed. It's not always 30 degrees, this depends on how faraway you started at the abeam. Sometimes this will need to be more if late when turning in on the abeam. This pattern is more of a dance to hit the numbers the best you can in the pattern up to the groove, it takes lots of practice knowing where you are at on the 90 then the 45. Should I ease this turn a little at the 90? 27 degrees perhaps.

This is why they train so much on land too, just remember if you do this on land the runway is not moving now, so allow for the 1/4 mile groove in your downwind. 1/4 mile past the abeam on the downwind etc, it's also realistic to add crosswind too when training, that you don't have as much at the ship.

AOB of 27-30 is not set in stone. When on-speed with the Hornet and anywhere from 1.1-1.3nm abeam, you use anywhere from 27-30 AOB. How do you know how much you need? The closer abeam (1.1) the less AOB you use (27-28), then the farther abeam, the more AOB you're going to need. Let's say you're 1.1 abeam, until you reach the 90, try to keep 27-28 AOB, when you reach the 90, look at the ship and learn the sight picture, does it look like you're going to under or over-shoot? Adjust accordingly. In the end, this will take lots and lots of practice. A month after being helped a lot by a USN guy on discord (I play quite a bit since a couple months due to holiday) I think I now get consistent FAIRs/OKs (mostly FAIRs though), so practice practice practice!

Would it not be the case that the nearer abeam you are then the more angle of bank is required?

Like wise the further abeam you are would require a shallower angle of bank.

Cheers

Would it not be the case that the nearer abeam you are then the more angle of bank is required?

Like wise the further abeam you are would require a shallower angle of bank.

 

Cheers

Can also be because your deep (late turn in from abeam) the more bank needed to the 90, otherwise you end up way to Long in the groove.

The abeam distance is also a range, not a fixed 1.2 nm.

It is according to Lex.

I’ve helped all I can. I recommend directing your questions to Lex.

Then Lex is wrong.

Lex is former Hornet Pilot in real life...

edit: Alright I jumped in here without actually reading what you guys are talking about.

The abeam distance is between 1.1 and 1.3nm, you will see this in the training documention on the CASE1. If lex said it is a fixed range of 1.2 then that might have been what his Squadron was targetting or how they were conducting it at the time.

Re the skipper stuff - The captain is always aiming to get 30kts of wind across the deck. AEW did a great video series of Hornet training videos and he covers this in one of those videos. So if the wind is 20kts then the Captain will drive into it at 10kts, if the wind is 10kts the Captain will drive in to it at 20kts and so on. The target is always for approx 30knts of wind over the deck.

One of the issues server admins have is our ships cannot constantly sail into the wind OR make smart turns in to the wind when aircraft are recovering. So at some point in a DCS MP server that runs for hours on end the carrier will have to have some sort of downwind leg.

You can combat this by having two carriers at opposite ends of the track from each other which is how we have it set up on the 104th server. Or a mission designer could speed up the carriers downwind leg so it gets to the upwind turn faster.

But for true realistic set ups you're going to have to wait as when our Carriers are doing over 20kts it makes taxiing around on them very difficult so they are all set at 18kts for now until the dev team work out the deck issues.

He maybe chose right words, but listener misunderstood,...

I agree, I edited my post after actually reading what you guys were talking about.

Appeal to authority...

 

Anyway:

He maybe don't know,

He maybe knows but chose wrong words,

He maybe chose right words, but listener misunderstood,...

He's very specific. See 9:46:

Then Lex is wrong.

And your credentials are?

Sry, I choose to believe official document over random yt guy.

No problem with that, it's your prerogative.

My credentials are not important. Source document is what counts. Science work 101.

You need some authority, either through experience, or as you've done in this case, quoting official documentation. You could have cited that at the start though :lol:

edit:// the discrepancy is due to the DME readout only being to 1 decimal place maybe?

Well I would consider it a target rather than something you get in trouble for deviating from slightly.