How to utilize the formation lights properly for formation flying

Here is some night specific stuff:

The takeoff procedure will be the same as that used during the day. The wingman will use the

reference described previously but must ensure his lateral position is maintained. Accurate distance judgement is improved if the wingman keeps his scan moving around lead aircraft instead of fixating on one position for any length of time. Both formation members must be aware of the possible distraction caused by the landing light rotating upwards as it retracts.

FORMATION POSITIONS

1. The echelon references used by the wingman are identical to those used during day formation flying. Line astern is not flown at night due to lack of appropriate lighting.

2. Once airborne, leads exterior lights may have to be adjusted for the wingman. The wingman's strobe beacon should be turned off prior to entering cloud or at any other time to avoid possible distraction or vertigo.

3. The lead shall make power changes slowly since aircraft movement will not be as readily

apparent to the wingman at night as it is in the day. The night formation references will provide both a bearing line and step down distance. When the wingman is in the proper position, his lights will partially illuminate lead's aircraft.

REJOINS

1. Formation rejoins at night are done in the same manner as those described for day formation.

However, since visual cues will not be readily apparent, keep the lead in the lower front quarter of the canopy immediately behind the canopy bow until you are close enough to see the lights of his aircraft.

INSTRUMENT APPROACHES

1. Carry out instrument approaches and landings in the same way as you would during daylight

hours. Normally the aircraft on the right side of the formation will have the landing light turned off. If the wingman is on the right side of the formation the landing light should be turned off. The lead will ask the wingman to turn off his landing light if not done on his own initiative. Also, R/T will be used rather than hand signals.

CIRCUIT AND LANDING

1. Lead should line up well out on the runway extended centre line to allow sufficient time for an echelon change should one be necessary. The break spacing will not be less than 5 seconds.

2. Once established in the break, lead should turn his strobe to BRT. Caution should be

exercised throughout the circuit by the wingman to ensure he has lead visual at all times, particularly prior to commencing the final turn.

3. Landing procedures remain the same as for daytime. The taxi in spacing will remain the same as during the taxi out.

NIGHT EMERGENCY SIGNALS

1. Normally radio signals shall be used during night formation. In the event that both radios are

not available and an in-flight emergency exists, one night visual signal can be used for emergency purposes. Repeated intermittent flashes with a flashlight will indicate that the aircraft is in distress and wishes to land as soon as possible. The leader should assume that the aircraft in distress has one or more systems inoperable, and should proceed with extreme caution. If the distressed aircraft fuel state is unknown he should fly below on speed AOA (i.e., fast) to allow a stall safety margin.

So....OP asked specifically about formation light cueing at night....and two pages later only one person actually answered his question....

uh.....when does the OP specify night?

I know how to turn them on, but how do we read them to fly properly in formation? Interested to see some screenshots of how the lead should be aligned from the wingman's cockpit point of view.

 

Thanks!

 

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Some of y'all are toxic, this post was clearly and accurately answered by BOTH BBS_Sniper in post #9 & Jeepyb in #15.

The request: "how the lead should be aligned from the wingman's cockpit point of view"

The answer as stated in the overhead diagram "Wingman's Line of Sight (wingtip light on LEX light) & Wingman's Line of Sight (no detectable nozzle curve)"

That clearly states how lead's aircraft should be aligned to the wingman's cockpit point of view albeit not a perspective image, which by the way was followed up by both myself, BSS_Sniper, and Jeepyb with a perfectly illustrated depiction of the point of view for parade formation. Time of day was not requested in the original post but once again answered by BSS_Sniper and more in depth by Jeepyb.

And then to top it off just this morning Lex posted his hour long video on this very topic regarding formations as posted by =4c=Nikola in post #20.

As for "Nor can I see how the day references are in the slightest bit useful", Flamin_Squirrel, formation lights are place on aircraft for visual recognition of which way a plane is flying, red/green/white navigation lights and the horizontal / vertical formation lights for night... the placement of said lights for flying was answered and given the distance in which the planes are space are roughly 44-50 feet (13-15 meters) from lead pilot head to wingman's head for parade. There should be no issues observing the reference cues even in VR.

Nice description Jeepyb.

I guess there are differences between countries, services, airfield local ops and... even between the squadrons sometimes. Then there are certain differences between training and combat (in country ;) I like that term) I've seen some vids with combat overhead breaks, fan breaks, etc.

I looks awesome when you see 4 jets snapping into breaks simultaneously and still managing intervals.

I've never seen vids with night overhead breaks, section take-offs, section landings or... parade forms, hmmm.

https://imgur.com/a/vBrext9

As for night:

WINGTIP FORMATION LIGHT next to POSITION LIGHT (Red left side or Green right side) And Boom Parade line-up.

Nice description Jeepyb.

I guess there are differences between countries, services, airfield local ops and... even between the squadrons sometimes.

Indeed. This is all from Canadian pubs btw if you notice the roundel on the A/C from my first post.

Some of y'all are toxic, this post was clearly and accurately answered by BOTH BBS_Sniper in post #9 & Jeepyb in #15.

 

The request: "how the lead should be aligned from the wingman's cockpit point of view"

 

The answer as stated in the overhead diagram "Wingman's Line of Sight (wingtip light on LEX light) & Wingman's Line of Sight (no detectable nozzle curve)"

 

That clearly states how lead's aircraft should be aligned to the wingman's cockpit point of view albeit not a perspective image, which by the way was followed up by both myself, BSS_Sniper, and Jeepyb with a perfectly illustrated depiction of the point of view for parade formation. Time of day was not requested in the original post but once again answered by BSS_Sniper and more in depth by Jeepyb.

 

And then to top it off just this morning Lex posted his hour long video on this very topic regarding formations as posted by =4c=Nikola in post #20.

 

As for "Nor can I see how the day references are in the slightest bit useful", Flamin_Squirrel, formation lights are place on aircraft for visual recognition of which way a plane is flying, red/green/white navigation lights and the horizontal / vertical formation lights for night... the placement of said lights for flying was answered and given the distance in which the planes are space are roughly 44-50 feet (13-15 meters) from lead pilot head to wingman's head for parade. There should be no issues observing the reference cues even in VR.

Time of day may not be requested originally, but I certainly asked about night flying. And while nozzles may be a fine reference during the day, I'm still yet to see how that would be satisfactory at night.

Perhaps I'm being thick, but as far as I'm concerned, the question remains (albeit only partially) open.

uh.....when does the OP specify night?

How to utilize the formation lights properly for formation flying

Formation lights are used at night.

Perhaps I'm being thick, but as far as I'm concerned, the question remains (albeit only partially) open.

I wouldn't say you're being thick. It's common here on the ED forums to "answer" questions that haven't been asked, or simply say "read the manual" without bothering to mention which manual, which is kind of crucial in the case of NATOPS when "NATOPS" is used as a catch-all title to reference a dozen or more different manuals that may or may not be related to the Hornet at all. Even then, the reference may be incomplete, for example the nozzles diagram in the NFM-500 NATOPS. As evidenced by Jeepyb's posts, there are more cues than just the nozzles.

Time of day may not be requested originally, but I certainly asked about night flying. And while nozzles may be a fine reference during the day, I'm still yet to see how that would be satisfactory at night.

 

Perhaps I'm being thick, but as far as I'm concerned, the question remains (albeit only partially) open.

Just off the top of my head but, I’m guessing you won’t be using parade in limited visibility

Some of y'all are toxic, this post was clearly and accurately answered by BOTH BBS_Sniper in post #9 & Jeepyb in #15.

 

The request: "how the lead should be aligned from the wingman's cockpit point of view"

 

The answer as stated in the overhead diagram "Wingman's Line of Sight (wingtip light on LEX light) & Wingman's Line of Sight (no detectable nozzle curve)"

 

That clearly states how lead's aircraft should be aligned to the wingman's cockpit point of view albeit not a perspective image, which by the way was followed up by both myself, BSS_Sniper, and Jeepyb with a perfectly illustrated depiction of the point of view for parade formation. Time of day was not requested in the original post but once again answered by BSS_Sniper and more in depth by Jeepyb.

 

And then to top it off just this morning Lex posted his hour long video on this very topic regarding formations as posted by =4c=Nikola in post #20.

 

As for "Nor can I see how the day references are in the slightest bit useful", Flamin_Squirrel, formation lights are place on aircraft for visual recognition of which way a plane is flying, red/green/white navigation lights and the horizontal / vertical formation lights for night... the placement of said lights for flying was answered and given the distance in which the planes are space are roughly 44-50 feet (13-15 meters) from lead pilot head to wingman's head for parade. There should be no issues observing the reference cues even in VR.

You can lead a horse to water...

"Go check this broad set of manuals, but I won't tell you which manual" is not leading a horse to water. It's telling the horse that there's water somewhere in a general direction.

you can lead your AI wingmen to the tanker but you cant make them to tank...

Nealius, BSS_Sniper was talking about the several posts that answered his question...

The picture in #15 is certainly a big chunk of the answer. Everything else helps nil. And while you'd absolutely use parade in IMC (closer is safer) you would want to know the cross reference sight line.

I'm guessing the nose strip with the wingtip alignment is the more acute bearing reference for cruise. The longitudinal strips form a waterline of a consistent ranging spacing. The tail one I don't get except it's another orientation/ranging reference, notably when the nose light can't be seen. I can't see how the waterline or tail slimes are used for bearing checks except for wingtip to nose. I guess it's helpful to see if the tail waterline gets obscured to know the wing or stab is doing it.

By trying it out I notice that the position lights are funny. The inner missile rail blooms around the rail and the top LERX position light is not visible like the actuator fairing one, more "covert." It's darker than the strips.

Maybe tail pipe alignment is just visible by the engine's natural exhaust illumination?

"Go check this broad set of manuals, but I won't tell you which manual" is not leading a horse to water. It's telling the horse that there's water somewhere in a general direction.

ORRR you missed the part where I posted the actual pages in this thread from those manuals...you must be getting thirsty by now. lol

ORRR you missed the part where I posted the actual pages in this thread from those manuals...you must be getting thirsty by now. lol

What you posted was useless for night flying. Stop trolling.

Since you still cannot seem to grasp the concept of formation lights and position lights here are 5 images captured at night with no moon from the right side of Lead:

This is called Breaking it Down Barney Style or By the Numbers...

You are too far forward:

https://imgur.com/a/Fi0txp0

Wingtip Light is between the Position Light and Rear Formation Light - Ease Power

You are lined up for Parade:

https://imgur.com/a/zrfNB8A

Wingtip Light is almost on top of Position Light

You are in the Cruise:

https://imgur.com/a/QNPRTPV

Wingtip Light is between Position Light and Nose Formation Light - Wingtip Light should be somewhere under the Cockpit Canopy

You are slightly too far to the rear of Lead:

https://imgur.com/a/C1PuRCk

Wingtip Light is to the right of both Position Light and Nose Formation Light - Add Power

You are directly behind the aircraft:

https://imgur.com/a/01vjIl3

NOTE: You should be slightly lower in altitude compared to Lead's A/C. This can be observed by drawing and imaginary line between the Rear & Nose Horizontal Lights and noting if the Wingtip Light is above or below that line (Wingtip Light Above - you are too low | Wingtip Light Below - you are too high). Also, if you are on the left side of Lead, then the Position Light will not be Blue-Green but Red.

What you posted was useless for night flying. Stop trolling.

I'm not sure what your problem is with me when i've tried to help or how you can't deduce that if you fly formation during the day using the NATOPS pages I posted, you can see where the formation lights are positioned and translate that into night. Are you really not understanding that?

Since you still cannot seem to grasp the concept of formation lights and position lights here are 5 images captured at night with no moon from the right side of Lead:

This is called Breaking it Down Barney Style or By the Numbers...

 

 

You are too far forward:

https://imgur.com/a/Fi0txp0

Wingtip Light is between the Position Light and Rear Formation Light - Ease Power

 

You are lined up for Parade:

https://imgur.com/a/zrfNB8A

Wingtip Light is almost on top of Position Light

 

You are in the Cruise:

https://imgur.com/a/QNPRTPV

Wingtip Light is between Position Light and Nose Formation Light - Wingtip Light should be somewhere under the Cockpit Canopy

 

You are slightly too far to the rear of Lead:

https://imgur.com/a/C1PuRCk

Wingtip Light is to the right of both Position Light and Nose Formation Light - Add Power

 

You are directly behind the aircraft:

https://imgur.com/a/01vjIl3

 

 

NOTE: You should be slightly lower in altitude compared to Lead's A/C. This can be observed by drawing and imaginary line between the Rear & Nose Horizontal Lights and noting if the Wingtip Light is above or below that line (Wingtip Light Above - you are too low | Wingtip Light Below - you are too high). Also, if you are on the left side of Lead, then the Position Light will not be Blue-Green but Red.

From what I can see you've covered altitude and bearing line, but nothing on separation.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but this stuff won't be left to chance, and no-one is yet to post a definitive guide on how to cover all three variables. Only Jeepyb has covered 2 out of 3.

I'm not sure what your problem is with me when i've tried to help or how you can't deduce that if you fly formation during the day using the NATOPS pages I posted, you can see where the formation lights are positioned and translate that into night. Are you really not understanding that?

I honestly don't know why you are being patronising, since you've failed to answer the question. You've only posted day references that can only be seen during the, you know, day. How is that the slightest bit helpful?

Sniper, thank you for your time and effort on this thread, I did learn what I needed. Squirrel, please stop antagonizing, it has devolved into unhealthy discussion at this point.

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If this thread has given you want you wanted to know then great, but this thread does NOT have all the information you need to fly formation in total darkness. I'm not the only one to point this out, but it looks like I'm the only one left, which makes me 'antagonising'?

From what I can see you've covered altitude and bearing line, but nothing on separation.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, but this stuff won't be left to chance, and no-one is yet to post a definitive guide on how to cover all three variables. Only Jeepyb has covered 2 out of 3.

 

 

 

I honestly don't know why you are being patronising, since you've failed to answer the question. You've only posted day references that can only be seen during the, you know, day. How is that the slightest bit helpful?

One last time. Fly formation during the day. Look at the formation strips position, translate that to night. It's pretty simple.

Squirrel, if you are this much trouble with spatial awareness and depth perception from day to night, maybe night formation flying isn't for you my friend... The visual recognition points i.e. the lights do not change position randomly on the aircraft, Lead is not going to say you know what I think I want to move my Nose formation further back on my air frame tonight... That's not how it works, fly in formation during the day, learn how close you need to be, take note of the locations of all the formation lights and other cues, take a mental note of the visual angles and reference points to your cockpit and translate it to night, they are not going to change. Seriously, its like drive in the pitch black at night, how do you not hit the curb, because you just know, you translate the location of the curb in front of you and hold your lane. You are honestly making this much more difficult than it needs to be.

Zyll, I am glad you got everything you need. I hope I was of help too.

If you think that a vague description rather than well defined check points qualifies as a suitable level of detail for something as dangerous night formation flying then you have no business trying to explain this to anyone.

There probably exists some real document that describes in paragraphs or pages the peculiarities of night formation reference. It's not sufficient to say "just like day but dark."

Because the visual references change so does the narrative about what one looks for. For comparison I point out AFTTP 3-3 Vol 5, Chapter 8 which is USAF and a different airplane but similar in concept. Also CNATRA P-1213 concerns itself with T-45 night formation.

One expects that parade to be essentially identical geometrically day/night with differences in the narrative for how to be comply. Cruise doesn't share the same bearing line as parade so no picture thus far is helpful. Further cruise is not a singular position but a range of positions complying with the bearing line swept conically and a certain nose-tail separation. Cruise could be more troublesome being dynamic and variable.

And nothing has been said about references during various rejoin activities.

There probably exists some real document that describes in paragraphs or pages the peculiarities of night formation reference. It's not sufficient to say "just like day but dark."

 

Because the visual references change so does the narrative about what one looks for. For comparison I point out AFTTP 3-3 Vol 5, Chapter 8 which is USAF and a different airplane but similar in concept. Also CNATRA P-1213 concerns itself with T-45 night formation.

 

One expects that parade to be essentially identical geometrically day/night with differences in the narrative for how to be comply. Cruise doesn't share the same bearing line as parade so no picture thus far is helpful. Further cruise is not a singular position but a range of positions complying with the bearing line swept conically and a certain nose-tail separation. Cruise could be more troublesome being dynamic and variable.

 

And nothing has been said about references during various rejoin activities.

Lex Talionis went over this on his fourth (?) video. It wasn't specific to night time flying, but the information about how to line up is all there. You're not lining up with protractor accuracy, just eyeballing a reference point - per real FA18 aviator. I think you guys are taking it to the extreme. What bss_sniper and ddsstt posted are apropos. Find two reference points, and line up in cruise or parade formation. If you watch Lex's video, it'll make more sense.