On the topic of Iranian Tomcats & Russian Weapons

once the numbers of Flight Worthy F-14s Dwindled they were relegated to AWACs Role.

 

Iran is saying they have 60 Flight Worthy out of 79... I Call BS on that too.

It is doubtful that Iran has 60 operational airframes, but they did stage a mass overflight of Tehran with ~40 aircraft as counted my western observers. Who knows how many were combat capable.

The idea of the F-14 acting as an AWACS was proposed by US observers in the region during the Iran-Iraq war, based on Tomcats orbiting for long periods with their radars searching. The thing is...these Tomcats were generally observed in populated areas with a well defined ground radar network. Meaning places that already had early warning capability that was likely better than the AWG-9. Per later IRIAF reports, these Tomcats weren't "awacs-ing", but the mere presence of airborne F-14s was a solid deterrent to IrAF strikes, especially by 1983 or so. This made a huge difference when the "war of cities" fired up mid-way through the conflict - a dark time.

-Nick

What a can of worms. It's a delicate subject, an american made plane in the hands of a former ally, now a potential adversary. One side accusing the other of propaganda, and vice versa. I think that Heatblur should do what they think is best, what corresponds to the data that they have and ignore most of the naysayers on the forums.

my suggestion to leatherneck is a tomcat from mid Iran Iraq war, which does not have much of changes in the systems,and with the mim23 carrying capabilities, as after the war many military showcases were carried with propaganda I've never seen the IRIAF considering the Russian ones as active missiles of tomcat in any airshow, the only evidence of tomcat with r27 is one single shot and some reports which cannot be verified, the only realistic option would be the sedjeel ( mim23) missile which only 2 of them can be carried by tomcat, the rest of the options are not as real as they should be.

best regards

Alireza

I agree.

Bold is mine.

Since we can't be 100% sure of anything in this particular issue, we will likely place this additional weapon capability behind a server authoritive, special checkbox, which will default to off. This way, each player and server can individually decide whether the expanded weaponry will be available to Iranian F-14As, and simulate a different F-14 OPFOR experience.

This is absolutly necessary if you guys are going to integrate these weapons!

I'm generelly not very fond of having such "special" weapons with limited or no documentation on how they work, but these restrictions for multiplayer would make it acceptable for me, although barely acceptable.

That isn't realistic at all. There was one carriage test, and there's no evidence of any shots fired at all. MIM-23 barely has any commonality with what the AWG-9 does; it probably can't even tune the missile.

Iran seems to have gone in a completely different direction since photos of that test surfaced anyway.

I agree.

 

Bold is mine.

http://rahrovan-artesh.ir/index.php?/topic/6-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B4%DA%A9-%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%E2%80%8C-%D8%A8%D9%87-%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%B3%D8%AC%DB%8C%D9%84-aim23/

Here's all the available and unclassified footage of usage of mim23 missile on tomcat, you can get someone to translate it for you, it completely explains how they matched the radar and systems with the missiles, then it's up to the readers to decides how much of propaganda it has, after all there are many non English websites that write about Iranian military and are way less poisoned by the propaganda unlike the English ones, so better check those out instead of English ones

Are they being carried now? One post describing a test development doesn't make it a production item.

Iran seems to be going in a direction that's completely different, which is replacing the Phoenix and Sidewinder (and I would guess the AIM-7?) with their own variants.

And that actually makes more sense, since the aircraft is designed to carry a certain number of those missiles, while carrying the MIM-23 would require some sort of modification and they can be carried only on the two wing stations. It's a neat experiment but why hobble your aircraft like this? I don't believe that they're that desperate. They probably learned a lot from doing the exercise though.

As for translation: I have no problem if you translate, there's no reason for distrust in terms of this. It's more about having seen things said that just don't pan out. It's not just Iran, it happens in other cases too. A simple example: US apaches don't carry stinger, sidewinder or maverick. These missiles were successfully tested but never cleared for operational use by the US Army. On the other hand, Japanese and British Apaches carry the stinger.

Are they being carried now? One post describing a test doesn't make it a production item.

 

Iran seems to be going in a direction that's completely different, which is replacing the Phoenix and Sidewinder (and I would guess the AIM-7?) with their own variants.

 

And that actually makes more sense, since the aircraft is designed to carry a certain number of those missiles, while carrying the MIM-23 would require some sort of modification and they can be carried only on the two wing stations. It's a neat experiment but why hobble your aircraft like this?

yes sir both sedjeel (maybe sejil, god damn it why do they have to use same names on so many different military products :joystick:) and fakour-90 (the Iranian copy of aim54) are under production, and you can find some footage of carriage out of search phase in you tube and they took down some Iraqi aircrafts too.

actually the idea of using hawk was after seeing the poor results of aim7 E-2 on f-14 which obviously were not supposed to be used on tomcat but after the revolution the purchase of new aim7s were ceased.

they even tested standard missiles on f-4 but because of both terrible results and shortage of standard missiles in navy inventory the shut down the project, there are so many of this projects during the iran iraq history they even tested the m-117 rocket warhead on mim23 missile :noexpression::noexpression::noexpression: and did some tests on it ( yaser project, you might find some test pictures of it) and for obvious reasons the project was simply forgotten.

and it has a simple reason to do this, Iran had a limited inventory of aim54, maybe around 250-280 when the war started, more were on the purchase list before the regime change, but the regime change and the attitude of the new regime to USA, caused those purchases to be ceased by USA, so we were unable to buy aim54, we were using them every day to beat the Iraqi air force, which every year was buying more aircrafts ( obviously more advanced ones like mirage f-1 and mig29) and we will go low on aim54, so the only option is finding a new missile, on the other hand during the Iran-contra Iran got some mim23 hawk missiles.

So I guess it should make sense why Iran did this.

Yaser project

 

 





 

test of the yaser project

 



 

standard missile test on phantom

Since we can't be 100% sure of anything in this particular issue, we will likely place this additional weapon capability behind a server authoritive, special checkbox, which will default to off. This way, each player and server can individually decide whether the expanded weaponry will be available to Iranian F-14As, and simulate a different F-14 OPFOR experience.

Good idea, this is how this should be handled for all modules in my opinion. Label and separate those things that can't be simulated to the fullest so that the end user can be informed about what the simulation actually entails.

Things like this will allow a lot more mileage from DCS modules, as we can simulate more variants with less development time.

Standard missile was actually a SEAD payload on the Phantom, so zero surprise there for me :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-78_Standard_ARM

I have quite serious doubts about the HAWK. It's a very poor replacement for the AIM-7. I personally believe they are going with Fakour+Fatter and whatever replacement they might come with for an MRM (indigenous sparrow?) ... this is my point: You can carry six sparrows or phoenix, and only two HAWKs. It's just a poor mix IMHO.

Apreciate the fact that devs came here to tell us what we think about this. Opinions are deverse.

Here is mine :

DCS is supposed to be a realistic flight simulator. Not a guesswork Flight Simulator. For me, having guessworking on the F-14 can discredit DCS and Heatblur (just a personal opinion). I will pay, but only for a full realistic product (as much as devs can get of course).

If you have true data about this Russian made missiles on the F-14, then why not ? And share those datas in the manual when released.

But there is pretty much zero credible data about this. So, my 2 cents : forget this and keep focus to give us a pro-level F-14 :).

Cheers.

Give the final user the option to choose If they want the missiles or not, as simple as that.

Standard missile was actually a SEAD payload on the Phantom, so zero surprise there for me :)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-78_Standard_ARM

 

I have quite serious doubts about the HAWK. It's a very poor replacement for the AIM-7. I personally believe they are going with Fakour+Fatter and whatever replacement they might come with for an MRM (indigenous sparrow?) ... this is my point: You can carry six sparrows or phoenix, and only two HAWKs. It's just a poor mix IMHO.

Actually I was referring to the SAM member of the standard family, but yes the AGM78 is loaded on phantom.

Well they are not poor compared to AIM7-E2 which was not supposed to be used on tomcats (the AIM7-F was ordered for tomcats) ,tomcat even had more kills with sidewinder than sparrow, those sparrows (and somewhere I heard the same about the aim9j s that Iran had but I really doubt) were imported to be used on phantoms.

the first idea was to replace the sparrow but when we war marched on, the shortage of aim54 showed itself, in many cases pilots had to cancel the enemy mission by just locking them up instead of shooting, and man f-14 can be scary for anyone, and I guess that fear showed itself during gulf war, so the idea changed, the usage of mim23 happened during the war, and war, well it was over by the end of 80s, and today the usage of mim23 is less reasonable as airforce had developed other missiles. that's why I suggest the heat-blur to add the mid 80 option, as before 80s there was no reason to fight an IIAF tomcat, and if you want to simulate today situation that would be impossible because of lack of data. but the mid and late 80s was the time that tomcat had both the option of using mim23 and aim54 ( of course with considering the shortage of aim54). And of course these days there are not much combat able tomcats left in Iran.

Apreciate the fact that devs came here to tell us what we think about this. Opinions are deverse.

 

Here is mine :

 

DCS is supposed to be a realistic flight simulator. Not a guesswork Flight Simulator. For me, having guessworking on the F-14 can discredit DCS and Heatblur (just a personal opinion). I will pay, but only for a full realistic product (as much as devs can get of course).

 

If you have true data about this Russian made missiles on the F-14, then why not ? And share those datas in the manual when released.

 

But there is pretty much zero credible data about this. So, my 2 cents : forget this and keep focus to give us a pro-level F-14 :).

 

 

Cheers.

There is virtually 0 guesswork in DCS: F-14, and that will not change. This has absolutely no impact on this.

At most this is an opt-in extension that must be specifically enabled and accessed.

The only real purpose it serves is avoiding messy modifications and lua modifications.

Give the final user the option to choose If they want the missiles or not, as simple as that.

That's what we think too, and it's an easy way to put the issue to rest. 99% of F-14 pilots will not even notice, know or care about the existence of a potential option.

Oh, and FWIW: We haven't even decided whether there will be any expanded weaponry, the point of this thread was to inform you that if we do add anything, it will be behind a special checkbox, clearly labeled as potentially unrealistic, and server authoritive. :)

EDIT: Just realized the first post was confusing on this due to my poor wording. Fixed!

Oh, and FWIW: We haven't even decided whether there will be any expanded weaponry, the point of this thread was to inform you that if we do add anything, it will be behind a special checkbox, clearly labeled as potentially unrealistic, and server authoritive. :)

 

EDIT: Just realized the first post was confusing on this due to my poor wording. Fixed!

Thanks for letting us know you're considering the expanded weapons. :smilewink:

I personally would love to have the option. I can't see anyone refusing to buy the module just because the option is there. No one stopped downloading DCS just because there's the options for easier flight, unlimited fuel, etc. :D

I think you should add the extra weapons just for the sake of options and mission-making, regardless of having to do a little bit of guesswork.

And thanks for hearing our suggestions :)

Thank you for being so receptive towards your customers, and taking everything into consideration. Very nice to see that in a developer.

Dear Heatblur,

what you're trying to do with weapon expansion is really appreciated, if you are not able to find the accurate enough data on modification on both weapon systems and extended weaponry (which is what I guess will probably happen as IRIAF is a little bit nasty about those data even though they are nothing too classified),as many said, it's not that necessary do the job mostly on guess work, at-least in our DCS society (IR) almost every one's going to buy tomcat, no matter what, it's some sort of a legendary bird to us, I myself would prefer hornet as my main flying type, but for 2 reasons, I'll buy tomcat at first day,

first, this bird did an awesome job protecting my country from invasion of Iraq and all of us Iranians, owe it,

2nd: this module is developed by heat-blur ( or called it leather neck before) and I really love how they developed their other modules.

P.S: For the 10th time, every one, there's only one photo and evidence of Persian cats ( tomcats) carrying those Russian missiles, nothing else rather than that can be found, because they decided that there's going to be no need for tomcats to carry those anymore, been there done that, you won't find anymore data Russian being carried by tomcats .

http://jangaavaran.ir/7872-2/

Dear Heatblur,

what you're trying to do with weapon expansion is really appreciated, if you are not able to find the accurate enough data on modification on both weapon systems and extended weaponry (which is what I guess will probably happen as IRIAF is a little bit nasty about those data even though they are nothing too classified),as many said, it's not that necessary do the job mostly on guess work, at-least in our DCS society (IR) almost every one's going to buy tomcat, no matter what, it's some sort of a legendary bird to us, I myself would prefer hornet as my main flying type, but for 2 reasons, I'll buy tomcat at first day,

first, this bird did an awesome job protecting my country from invasion of Iraq and all of us Iranians, owe it,

2nd: this module is developed by heat-blur ( or called it leather neck before) and I really love how they developed their other modules.

 

 

P.S: For the 10th time, every one, there's only one photo and evidence of Persian cats ( tomcats) carrying those Russian missiles, nothing else rather than that can be found, because they decided that there's going to be no need for tomcats to carry those anymore, been there done that, you won't find anymore data Russian being carried by tomcats .

http://jangaavaran.ir/7872-2/

:thumbup:

Dear Heatblur,

what you're trying to do with weapon expansion is really appreciated, if you are not able to find the accurate enough data on modification on both weapon systems and extended weaponry (which is what I guess will probably happen as IRIAF is a little bit nasty about those data even though they are nothing too classified),as many said, it's not that necessary do the job mostly on guess work, at-least in our DCS society (IR) almost every one's going to buy tomcat, no matter what, it's some sort of a legendary bird to us, I myself would prefer hornet as my main flying type, but for 2 reasons, I'll buy tomcat at first day,

first, this bird did an awesome job protecting my country from invasion of Iraq and all of us Iranians, owe it,

2nd: this module is developed by heat-blur ( or called it leather neck before) and I really love how they developed their other modules.

 

 

P.S: For the 10th time, every one, there's only one photo and evidence of Persian cats ( tomcats) carrying those Russian missiles, nothing else rather than that can be found, because they decided that there's going to be no need for tomcats to carry those anymore, been there done that, you won't find anymore data Russian being carried by tomcats .

http://jangaavaran.ir/7872-2/

:thumbup:

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I like this cat. Make it happen!

Read this and they discuss some of the development of getting the MIM-23 to work. It did. Barely. Apparently the launch window had the 'Cat below several thousand AGL and the target above +15k. It was so restrictive it didn't have much combat value so they abandoned it.

If you do have a special checkbox for the attempted/tested/abandoned weapons for fun, please consider adding the American weapons that were carry tested but not implemented due to funding or necessity, such as AMRAAM, HARM, Harpoon, and SLAM(1st gen).