FFB for collective ?

So I can't believe that a long-ago sailplane pilot is even thinking about "beating the air into submission" . Polar opposites philosophically ...But I love to (virtually) fly at crop-duster heights , have the 1070 giving me flat terrain shadows , and many say the helos offer the best VR experience in DCS .

So being the type who lines up his ducks (and doesn't have money to burn) i have been thinking of collective solutions , including building my own . Would FFB be helpful ? Maybe adapting one axis of a Sidewinder ?

Would FFB be helpful ?

I'd say no, not for the collective.

Afaik there are no dynamic forces on any real helo. There is usually a friction brake to adjust the necessary force to move the lever in order to ease the handling (i.e. keeping it more or less in place unless you actually want to move it).

Even if you would ignore that, in DCS only the cyclic / flightstick are considered for force feedback devices (if FFB is supported at all). So, even if you use a FFB joystick axis for the cyclic, DCS would not care about the FFB aspect.

Get inventive with a brake cylinder or other hydraulic doohickery, as flagrum said FFB will only go to the stick 99.99% of the time, so any kind of mechanical feel you can get plus a potentiometer or hall sensor stuck on to it will be your best bet

Have I got a deal for you, cheap to make, does not require "special" tools, it's still a WIP but might give you some ideas.

Here you go.

All I can say is there is no feed back in the collective of an R44 that I could detect, it just had "friction" as you move it. Mind you that is only in normal flight conditions so I can't say for hard manoeuvring. and it really was by the numbers set for x manifold pressure for power (cllmb) or y for 80KIAS cruse.

Welcome to the light side, we have beer. :P

Everyone is correct, there are no dynamic forces in helicopter controls, with one major exception: light turbine helicopters like the Jetranger and EC120 (I use those as examples because I’ve flown them) when the hydraulics are failed / turned off. Movement of one control will cause bumping and resistance in the other.

Larger helicopters like the B412 are completely uncontrollable without hydraulics, and most smaller ones don’t have hydraulics at all, so the light turbine class is where you see this the most.

All that being said, this small use case probably isn’t enough to build a whole control setup around!

Did someone say beer ?

Everyone is correct, there are no dynamic forces in helicopter controls, with one major exception: light turbine helicopters like the Jetranger and EC120 (I use those as examples because I’ve flown them) when the hydraulics are failed / turned off. Movement of one control will cause bumping and resistance in the other.

 

Larger helicopters like the B412 are completely uncontrollable without hydraulics, and most smaller ones don’t have hydraulics at all, so the light turbine class is where you see this the most.

Very good ansver!

Just adding a little

Collective stick will normally use either adjustable friktion or mag brake = Quite easy to build if needed.

Cyclics are without stick forces in most cases and below floor most* helos have springs and or rubber bands that give a syntetic stick force and centering of the stick with the possibility to move the centered position via mag brake and/or electrical trim motors acting on the springs/rubber bands. This is the part where you’d really like the stick to work like this to effectively be able to simulate real flight. At hover the cyclic in most cases are quite close to the aft limit (around 25%-ish) and at fast forward flight its around 75%-ish.

*) Bell206 dont, but fricktion can be adjusted. I guess the R22/R44 doesnt as well.

Very good ansver!

 

Just adding a little

Collective stick will normally use either adjustable friktion or mag brake = Quite easy to build if needed.

 

Cyclics are without stick forces in most cases and below floor most* helos have springs and or rubber bands that give a syntetic stick force and centering of the stick with the possibility to move the centered position via mag brake and/or electrical trim motors acting on the springs/rubber bands. This is the part where you’d really like the stick to work like this to effectively be able to simulate real flight. At hover the cyclic in most cases are quite close to the aft limit (around 25%-ish) and at fast forward flight its around 75%-ish.

 

*) Bell206 dont, but fricktion can be adjusted. I guess the R22/R44 doesnt as well.

Yeah, you are referring to a force trim system. Magnetic brakes hold the cyclic (and pedals) in position unless the force trim release button on the cyclic is depressed. Larger helos have it, but smaller ones don’t. B206 and EC120 don’t have it, you need to hold the cyclic with your knees on the ground when you need both hands for something (start checks usually). I have never in my career used friction except when on the ground (to save my knees lol). Hovering with friction on is not easy.

The DCS Huey is modelled with force trim. The B412 I fly has it too. It’s great on the ground and in cruise flight but a real pain in the hover! My thumb gets sore from holding the button down in long hovers. Often we just turn the system off, but we are “encouraged” not to do that.

Of note, the way DCS models force trim is not correct (unless you have a force feedback joystick). DCS allows you to center the stick when you reset the force trim, even if the cyclic is significantly displaced from center (as in forward flight). In the actual aircraft, it holds the cyclic in that position rather than centering it. There is a DCS setting that will use FFB to simulate this. I guess this is one area where your custom control setup would help!

Yeah, you are referring to a force trim system. Magnetic brakes hold the cyclic (and pedals) in position unless the force trim release button on the cyclic is depressed. Larger helos have it, but smaller ones don’t. B206 and EC120 don’t have it, you need to hold the cyclic with your knees on the ground when you need both hands for something (start checks usually). I have never in my career used friction except when on the ground (to save my knees lol). Hovering with friction on is not easy.

 

The DCS Huey is modelled with force trim. The B412 I fly has it too. It’s great on the ground and in cruise flight but a real pain in the hover! My thumb gets sore from holding the button down in long hovers. Often we just turn the system off, but we are “encouraged” not to do that.

 

Of note, the way DCS models force trim is not correct (unless you have a force feedback joystick). DCS allows you to center the stick when you reset the force trim, even if the cyclic is significantly displaced from center (as in forward flight). In the actual aircraft, it holds the cyclic in that position rather than centering it. There is a DCS setting that will use FFB to simulate this. I guess this is one area where your custom control setup would help!

On the B206 I did use a little friction on cyclic if I remember it wright.

On the BO105 I did use friction on collective to make it stay in place( nog more friction than needed for that). The BO105 I flew had a Force trim release on cyclic, in principle it did act as a mag brake release but mechanically built otherwise I think. It was not standard on the BO I learned when helping with data about the BO for DCS.

Of the 2000h I have on the BO, i guess > 1000 is with the force trim release button pressed.

Yes, the trim button on UH-1 in DCS Moves the center joystick to actual pos, but it also takes away the possybility to use ful range of cyclic which may cost some DCS users the UH-1 they fly at the moment.

I know you know this stuff, but I try and make my posts informative for the lurkers who maybe don’t know and are afraid to ask. I hope you don’t read that as me patronizing you! :thumbup:

That’s funny about the force trim, I literally have a numb spot on my right thumb from constantly holding down that button!

OT, but you must be super pumped for the BO105 to come to DCS World! The closest I have is the Huey, but it’s not the same as having something you flew in real life to play with!

So I can't believe that a long-ago sailplane pilot is even thinking about "beating the air into submission" . Polar opposites philosophically ...But I love to (virtually) fly at crop-duster heights , have the 1070 giving me flat terrain shadows , and many say the helos offer the best VR experience in DCS .

 

So being the type who lines up his ducks (and doesn't have money to burn) i have been thinking of collective solutions , including building my own . Would FFB be helpful ? Maybe adapting one axis of a Sidewinder ?

Frankly, I love FFB for helos in DCS, for the nature of force trim on the cyclic. But don't think it's necessary for the collective. I will say the purchase of an MSFFB2 from ebay immediately improved my ability to fly the Huey, Ka-50, and Mi-8. The effort to transition to hover felt so much easier. The gazelle's force trim seems a bit janky, trimming to artificial horizon rather than where you leave the stick. Down side is you can't add curves to an FFB stick or it throws off trimmed positions, so it can feel rather touchy. Personally I've trained myself to be extremely gentle in that regard. In the long run though, it's much easier to utilize than the return to center nature of using a non-ffb stick.

I also love it for prop planes, as they tend to not require as many buttons as the rest of the aircraft featured in DCS, and it's nice to be able to feel things like airspeed and trim position.

There are DIY methods of simulating force trim that doesn't include an FFB stick but rather a hydraulic system to hold the new center.. although that takes more knowhow than I have.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826280081&Description=throttle&cm_re=throttle-_-26-280-081-_-Product

this guy right here is prob all you need if you're just looking for a collective and don't already own some kind of throttle. Imo don't use curves as it throws off the effect of a measured distance of throttle movement as you get away from the center, where if it's linear, half an inch of movement will feel familiar throughout the axis. I invert my WH throttle so pull is ascend, and push is descend. The longer the throw of said throttle unit, the less touchy it will feel.

If help with immersion factor is needed.. imagine the Gazelle collective when you grip your throttle

Of note, the way DCS models force trim is not correct (unless you have a force feedback joystick). DCS allows you to center the stick when you reset the force trim, even if the cyclic is significantly displaced from center (as in forward flight). In the actual aircraft, it holds the cyclic in that position rather than centering it. There is a DCS setting that will use FFB to simulate this. I guess this is one area where your custom control setup would help!

Juat a small note. There is also a trim setting in DCS for us with cyclics (joysticks) without FFB but with friction to hold it in place. I use it in all my helicopters with my PFT Lynx controller (possible to apply friction). It improved my trimming routines quite a bit when I started using it, especially in the Shark.