BVR Tactics

Actually it's aerodynamics are very, very good for what it needs to be doing. The maneuverability of a missile at speed is downright scary - missiles are capable of pulling enough g to destroy themselves and they are prevented from doing this by limiters.

 

An AIM-9 (a missile on which we have some of the best data available) can pull more than 40g at sea level, and can reach out and touch your plane at 4nm at that altitude, and 10nm at 30000' (head on, requires target to have AB on for the seeker to lock on). This is a non-lofting missile, and it is a LOT draggier than an AIM-120 or AIM-7.

The point is not the drag of the missiles here it´s surely perfect. But how efficient it is in producing lift and how much energy it´s losing by doing so. When can the AIM9 produve 40g before or after it´s bleed out of energy?

It will produce 40g's when the pilot shooting it at you launches it with good parameters.

Would you launch a missile at a distance where it would be kinetically defeated by the bandit sneezing?

The common misconception here seems to be that you can somehow bleed the missile when it's launched with good parameters. So, I want to know what we're talking about, because I don't get it:

Are we talking about missiles that are shot at Rmax, and we thus KNOW that a turn will defeat them, so no discussion is needed, or are we talking about missiles shot inside the Rtr or something else?

The point is not the drag of the missiles here it´s surely perfect. But how efficient it is in producing lift and how much energy it´s losing by doing so. When can the AIM9 produve 40g before or after it´s bleed out of energy?

and can reach out and touch your plane at 3-4nm at that altitude, and 10nm at 30000' (head on, requires target to have AB on for the seeker to lock on).

For me it seems You are talking of rmax.

More interesting for me is what happens to the missile energy shot right at rtr and how much energy and maneuvering potential it´s got left then when reaching You after You having done defensive maneuvering. But in fact part of the discussion is about if rtr is modelled right (or even close to right) at all and what are Your options after a rtr shot.

An Aim-9 launched Rmax (target in AB) does have the benefit of being basically invisible (beyond 6nm). In all likely hood any maneuvering the target does after the launch is only going to be in response to the shooters maneuvering as opposed to any form of intended defensive tactic. A split-s has a high probability driving the bandit into that shot.

GG

Take an instance of an Rtr calculated with the enemy maintaining altitude, and the guy takes a shot at or slightly inside that. Now if you were high you could defeat that missile by dragging it low.

Now on the other hand, if you had an Rtr that was calcaluted for the best possible dragging defense. Let's hypothetically assume that is dragging the missile low. Then this specific Rtr will be shorter than the one above. But if he happens to take a shot at or slightly inside this Rtr then your efforts will fail trying to drag it.

I guess IRL they would have the second instance and that way indeed you can't outrun a shot taken at Rtr, but on the other hand it's not the way it works ingame, why's that, however can be down to a large number of reasons.

Rtr isn't modeled right. The display doesn't tell you the truth, the missiles aren't fast enough, and missile guidance isn't correct.

Assuming it was working correctly, your options with the Rtr are as follows:

1. If the shot is taken before the Rtr you can turn 180 and comfortably leave the missile behind. The further out from Rtr you are, the gentler you can be about it.

2. To evade a missile launched at Rtr, you have to do a max-performance slice-back and then accelerate to M1.2 or whatever the definition of Rtr is for the missile and particular situation. The point is, 'move it or lose it'. It has to be done when the missile is launched, not after.

3. If the shot it taken inside Rtr (or you decide not to turn and run right at Rtr) your only options are notch/countermeasures etc. Last-ditch evasion maneuver may be effective together with countermeasures, but not very likely at all on its own.

Let's examine what should happen in case #2:

a) You perform the maneuver as specified. The missile gets close to your tailpipe, but no dice - you just barely outrun it.

b) You beam or go to the notch instead of turning around. Assuming the missile continues to track you, at this distance the missile has plenty of energy to chase you down and defeat most maneuvers you might make, but it's still worth your time to attempt a last-ditch evasion.

c) You beam or go to the notch and the missile is decoyed/loses track. 'nuff said, right?

For me it seems You are talking of rmax.

More interesting for me is what happens to the missile energy shot right at rtr and how much energy and maneuvering potential it´s got left then when reaching You after You having done defensive maneuvering. But in fact part of the discussion is about if rtr is modelled right (or even close to right) at all and what are Your options after a rtr shot.

Take an instance of an Rtr calculated with the enemy maintaining altitude' date=' and the guy takes a shot at or slightly inside that. Now if you were high you could defeat that missile by dragging it low.[/quote']

 

No, you couldn't. It's a very simple concept, try to understand it: The meaning of Rtr is that you must execute a very specific maneuver to out0run the missile. The Rtr is your last chance to perform this maneuver. There's no 'what if it was calculated for this or calculated for that'. We know what it's calculated for. You get inside the Rtr, you're not getting away from that missile and you'll have to try something other than trying to out-run it or 'bleed it of energy'. Unless you decoy it, you will always end up in a last-ditch defense situation.

 

I guess IRL they would have the second instance and that way indeed you can't outrun a shot taken at Rtr, but on the other hand it's not the way it works ingame, why's that, however can be down to a large number of reasons.

It doesn't work in any way in-game.

Rtr isn't modeled right. The display doesn't tell you the truth, the missiles aren't fast enough, and missile guidance isn't correct.

 

Assuming it was working correctly, your options with the Rtr are as follows:

 

1. If the shot is taken before the Rtr you can turn 180 and comfortably leave the missile behind. The further out from Rtr you are, the gentler you can be about it.

 

2. To evade a missile launched at Rtr, you have to do a max-performance slice-back and then accelerate to M1.2 or whatever the definition of Rtr is for the missile and particular situation. The point is, 'move it or lose it'. It has to be done when the missile is launched, not after.

 

3. If the shot it taken inside Rtr (or you decide not to turn and run right at Rtr) your only options are notch/countermeasures etc. Last-ditch evasion maneuver may be effective together with countermeasures, but not very likely at all on its own.

 

Let's examine what should happen in case #2:

 

a) You perform the maneuver as specified. The missile gets close to your tailpipe, but no dice - you just barely outrun it.

 

b) You beam or go to the notch instead of turning around. Assuming the missile continues to track you, at this distance the missile has plenty of energy to chase you down and defeat most maneuvers you might make, but it's still worth your time to attempt a last-ditch evasion.

 

c) You beam or go to the notch and the missile is decoyed/loses track. 'nuff said, right?

It appeared to have great success against radar missiles to go in the notch dive to the ground and pull up right before the deck. It covers several defensive tactics and works against 9 of 10 AIM120C shots down to 8nm from medium alt. This is an appearance from the sim, if its realistic may further updates show.

Yep, that's how it is in the game. It's not realistic. More specifically, you can notch the missile's radar in RL, or at least you should be able to. Trouble is that unlike the in-game one, the real one:

a) Knows where you are and where you can pop out of the notch, and that's where it's looking for you (meaning: You need to continue notching the missile, countermeasures may help with messing it up, but it's still coming at you)

b) Has datalink from the aircraft, unlike in-game where the datalink goes away if the target drops (the real radar maintains your track even if you notch it, but this isn't part of the argument) OR if the missile goes active (this is the relevant part). The real 120 will continue using M-link updates from the parent aircraft if you haven't notched the shooter's radar.

c) If the shooter is using datalink and you notched him, and the missile, but not the buddy, the datalink position of you, being the target, is relayed to the shooter which relays it to the missile over M-Link, returning us to b) above.

In other words, the 'quick notch and re-attack' you're experiencing right now is fantasy, and this should be effectively the same for AIM-120's, R-77's, late model AIM-7's and a bunch of missiles that are currently not user-deployable, like MICA, R-33/37 and possibly a few others that I can't recall off the top of my head.

I should add that you may have noticed radar memory at work in all aircraft when guiding a missile in STT. This is as it should be, and means you need to stay in the notch long enough to completely make all the tracking devices give up. It's not so well represented in this sim.

It appeared to have great success against radar missiles to go in the notch dive to the ground and pull up right before the deck. It covers several defensive tactics and works against 9 of 10 AIM120C shots down to 8nm from medium alt. This is an appearance from the sim, if its realistic may further updates show.

Yep, that's how it is in the game. It's not realistic. More specifically, you can notch the missile's radar in RL, or at least you should be able to. Trouble is that unlike the in-game one, the real one:

 

a) Knows where you are and where you can pop out of the notch, and that's where it's looking for you (meaning: You need to continue notching the missile, countermeasures may help with messing it up, but it's still coming at you)

 

b) Has datalink from the aircraft, unlike in-game where the datalink goes away if the target drops (the real radar maintains your track even if you notch it, but this isn't part of the argument) OR if the missile goes active (this is the relevant part). The real 120 will continue using M-link updates from the parent aircraft if you haven't notched the shooter's radar.

 

c) If the shooter is using datalink and you notched him, and the missile, but not the buddy, the datalink position of you, being the target, is relayed to the shooter which relays it to the missile over M-Link, returning us to b) above.

 

In other words, the 'quick notch and re-attack' you're experiencing right now is fantasy, and this should be effectively the same for AIM-120's, R-77's, late model AIM-7's and a bunch of missiles that are currently not user-deployable, like MICA, R-33/37 and possibly a few others that I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

I should add that you may have noticed radar memory at work in all aircraft when guiding a missile in STT. This is as it should be, and means you need to stay in the notch long enough to completely make all the tracking devices give up. It's not so well represented in this sim.

Well these are simplifycations in the sim, simplifycations also apply to the russian systems there.

On the other hand counterpart to the higher technical features in RL are other weaknesses and unreliabilities there we don´t even think of.

Well these are simplifycations in the sim, simplifycations also apply to the russian systems there.

I mentioned a bunch of things.

On the other hand counterpart to the higher technical features in RL are other weaknesses and unreliabilities there we don´t even think of.