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BVR Tactics


USARStarkey

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Ok, so I have noticed that in my F-15 I can both lock onto and get the first shot off on any Russian plane in the game. This doesn't surprise me as the F-15 has a reputation for BVR combat and even the manual mentions this. However I have some questions.

 

I get launch authority before flankers firing R-27ER when im using 120C. From research ive done it seem like the R-27ER has greater range. My best guess is that the Flankers radar cant utilize the R-27ER at max range.

 

I did all tests at co-alt and even speed. Or is the oft quoted high range of the R-27ER only true in some other sense, ie: the russians and americans have different definitions on what "max" range is.

 

Sorry if this is old news but if someone who really knows there stuff could answer this I would be grateful for the info.

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First, maximum range is useless. It means maximum kinematic range against non maneuvering target. Now what the ER does better than the slammer, that it's faster, and it doesn't loft at all, which is most often a downside but in certain geometry it'll make it reach the target faster than the slammer does. This does not mean it has greater range.

 

On a general basis, regardless of what FC3 plane, your radar will detect the enemy outside Rmax (provided you're searching at the right position and your radar is set to the correct parameters). Exceptions will be targets notching and/or using terrain mask (or possibly using ECM at high altitude).

 

Flying the eagle or the russians comes with a different mentality. From my observation, russian drivers tend to be a lot more opportunistic with their missiles than the eagle drivers are. They won't hesitate to lob their ET/ERs at you from whatever range, even if well outside Rtr.

 

Has to be noted, there are a lot of problems around missiles. Micro lag/stutters and warping cause big issues as your missile will try to track fake movements of the target, making it bleed extra energy completely unnecessarily. This is especially problematic at long range shots since it just takes that much longer till impact. The higher the TTI, the more chance of lag/warping on the opponent's side. I won't speak about other issues as I don't know how the real life missiles perform so there's no sense for me to debate how good or bad they are ingame.


Edited by <Blaze>
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The R-27ER is superior in flight performance to the AIM-120C as of 1.2.7. I've tested them against head on non maneuvering targets and beaming non maneuvering targets. The R-27 reaches a slightly higher speed and loses less speed when turning or cruising.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1992715&postcount=1161

 

As for real life range, that can be defined in many ways which makes comparison hard without specific information.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

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Might be to do with the extra momentum it carries? It is a huge, heavy missile.

 

The weight will mean more induced drag to stay aloft. In a 0 g loft, the R-27 at a given motor cut off speed might have an advantage over the AIM-120 due to weight, but the lighter AIM-120 would generate less drag during a maneuver. This ignores control surfaces and guidance though.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

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No, it absolutely has to do with it being the missile that was tuned, and nothing else.

 

Might be to do with the extra momentum it carries? It is a huge, heavy missile.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Well, good Eagle drivers will often use their missiles more tactically in order to force problems for the other guy. Against a single, maneuvering target, in this version of DCS, it is not unusual to see a two ship of F-15C's lob three to four missiles at a single target as they close. This isn't necessarily in ignorance of the missiles' worth or performance, but instead their ability to threaten the target constantly.

 

When regarding weapons release parameters, one has a few things to REALLY consider.

 

The first is closure and range. How fast are you going, and as a result closing with the other guy?

 

The second is Altitude and performance of the missile. If you shoot, positionally, are you at an advantage compared to the other guy?

 

The third is seeker and missile guidance. How far out is the missile going to go pitbull (R-77/AIM-120 ONLY), and how much energy is it going to waste in flight due to inefficiencies in the guidance algorithms?

 

These is turn affect the associated E-pole, F-pole, and A-pole ranges that you have to concern yourself with.

 

So now that you have information in your brain, you have to think tactically about how best to use that information. Really, the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) only calculates a predetermined launch range based on missile performance given current conditions. It is completely ignorant of what you WANT the missile to do, which may or may not be different from what the computer is telling you. For a certainty, if you need to, you can fire a missile at almost any range you want. Generally, if the goal is to threaten the enemy, or give him something else to think about, a long range shot might be in order. It almost certainly won't be a high Pk shot, but if you goal isn't to kill, then does it really matter?

 

If your goal is to heavily threaten the target (most of the time, this will be true), then a medium shot is a good place to start the engagement. Usually this type of shot is just within the outer limits of the DLZ, or in 1.2.7, right around 15-22 miles depending on the altitude, airspeed, and closure, for the AIM-120C-5. At lower altitudes, a sub 15 nm shot might still be medium range, but at this point, you are getting pretty darn close to a short range, or sub 7 nm shot, which is a fairly high Pk scenario. At this point, keep in mind, that the reason it is a high Pk shot is because of E-pole, and if the enemy fires, you've got to be pretty sure in your ability to defeat any of his weapons and win the merge that you are going to buy in a few seconds.

 

But basically, what it comes down to is "it depends". The missiles are a work in progress, yes, and certain things are wrong, but tactics will win out over any perceived missile advantage as it stands.


Edited by Pyroflash

If you aim for the sky, you will never hit the ground.

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If your goal is to heavily threaten the target (most of the time, this will be true), then a medium shot is a good place to start the engagement. Usually this type of shot is just within the outer limits of the DLZ, or in 1.2.7, right around 15-22 miles depending on the altitude, airspeed, and closure, for the AIM-120C-5. At lower altitudes, a sub 15 nm shot might still be medium range, but at this point, you are getting pretty darn close to a short range, or sub 7 nm shot, which is a fairly high Pk scenario. At this point, keep in mind, that the reason it is a high Pk shot is because of E-pole, and if the enemy fires, you've got to be pretty sure in your ability to defeat any of his weapons and win the merge that you are going to buy in a few seconds.

 

But here having in mind that any good russian driver knows that any shot above 10nm unless its not from very high alt is playing easy to defeat. A quick notch and the missile ist gone, You also disappear from his radar. At least in the moment its modelled like this in DCS, I dont know either if its realistic. Then You still know where the enemy is and with the very fast acquisition time of EOS the Eagle Driver has a serious Problem when he continues his journey and You turn around and give him an ET-shot and disappear again right away. So it stays this interesting game of positioning Yourself in an advantagous position to the enemy around 7nm, which often leads to a merge. But then be aware of the flanker in the hills :P.

Again I dont know if this meets reality, but in the mom. its f... intersting that way.

 

S!

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Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

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But here having in mind that any good russian driver knows that any shot above 10nm unless its not from very high alt is playing easy to defeat. A quick notch and the missile ist gone, You also disappear from his radar. At least in the moment its modelled like this in DCS, I dont know either if its realistic. Then You still know where the enemy is and with the very fast acquisition time of EOS the Eagle Driver has a serious Problem when he continues his journey and You turn around and give him an ET-shot and disappear again right away. So it stays this interesting game of positioning Yourself in an advantagous position to the enemy around 7nm, which often leads to a merge. But then be aware of the flanker in the hills :P.

Again I dont know if this meets reality, but in the mom. its f... intersting that way.

 

S!

Well, it depends really, I try not to get so dreadfully close, and there are other things that you can do in order to keep the range open.

If you aim for the sky, you will never hit the ground.

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If you're facing the usual guy that's just staying low no matter what you'll get him unless you don't know how soon you can press on him again, your energy advantage will be just enough to make him scratch his head and then you can follow up for a second one that'll either blow him up or give him a really tough run for his life.

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A quick notch and the missile ist gone, You also disappear from his radar. At least in the moment its modelled like this in DCS, I dont know either if its realistic.

 

It's not.

 

Then You still know where the enemy is and with the very fast acquisition time of EOS the Eagle Driver has a serious Problem when he continues his journey and You turn around and give him an ET-shot and disappear again right away.

 

Until you run into some eagle driver who knows where you are - but that's all 1v1's ... what do you do when you run into a wall of eagles and you can only notch one at time?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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It's not.

 

 

 

Until you run into some eagle driver who knows where you are - but that's all 1v1's ... what do you do when you run into a wall of eagles and you can only notch one at time?

 

you head straight for em notching or turning like crazy you fire off your ETs and then you run like hell.

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All it takes is an approach out of AB and you can't get an ET to guide until that eagle is close. You have 120's coming at you all the time. At the point you can launch an ET (around 4nm) he can pop flares while staying at low power and that's what your ET will track. You won't outrun him once he kicks in burners. But again, this assumes your opponent knows what he's doing.

 

On the other hand, once/if missile guidance and radars are properly modeled, there just flat out won't be any crazy notching/turning and closing to launch ET's. The only thing you will be is crazy defensive.

 

you head straight for em notching or turning like crazy you fire off your ETs and then you run like hell.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Not to mention once it's fixed you won't be able to maddog ETs at 7-15 nm and still have it track the target all the way..

 

you head straight for em notching or turning like crazy you fire off your ETs and then you run like hell.

 

This is gonna stop working once the game is not about playing quake in a 100nm environment.


Edited by <Blaze>
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Until you run into some eagle driver who knows where you are - but that's all 1v1's ... what do you do when you run into a wall of eagles and you can only notch one at time?

 

 

1st thing is quite difficult when you first notch, then use terrain masking to get around him while you know his position via datalink very well.

 

2nd then I´m supposed to have wingmen too and then it gets even more theoretic and complex and even much more difficult for the eagles to keep SA with several low/high flying targets which are hiding in diffrent directions all at the same time using the same datalink.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

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All it takes is an approach out of AB and you can't get an ET to guide until that eagle is close. You have 120's coming at you all the time. At the point you can launch an ET (around 4nm) he can pop flares while staying at low power and that's what your ET will track.

 

I wont go head on to 4nm. At that time he goes idle and I see him disappear on EOS I at once switch radar on and give him an ER or 77 shot just to keep him busy. That´s only when the game starts. When I start hiding in notch or terrain he mostly needs to maneuver to find me and runs out of speed very quickly. Then I find him either quick and again the ET goes away or he just tries to extend which I know by the second he disappears an RWR and turn into him immediatly. If he does this seconds too late its ET and game over again.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

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I guess that's because he doesn't see you and he's not keeping you defensive. Or maybe you thought R-77's are harder to defeat that 120's?

 

4nm and out of notch = death by AMRAAM. :)

 

Congrats, you've got a trick that works for you, and that's how it's done.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I wont go head on to 4nm. At that time he goes idle and I see him disappear on EOS I at once switch radar on and give him an ER or 77 shot just to keep him busy. That´s only when the game starts. When I start hiding in notch or terrain he mostly needs to maneuver to find me and runs out of speed very quickly. Then I find him either quick and again the ET goes away or he just tries to extend which I know by the second he disappears an RWR and turn into him immediatly. If he does this seconds too late its ET and game over again.

 

AMRAAM is faster than ET, if the Eagle pilot is smart he'll reduce altitude the closer he gets, he'll know where to put his radar and find you trying to notch. Radar off to bait you and then have the advantage of missile speed whilst sending your ET either into the ground of flared till dead. There is no win win in 1v1, these situations boil down to skill and luck. Give the Eagle a buddy and you're toast.

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AMRAAM is faster than ET, if the Eagle pilot is smart he'll reduce altitude the closer he gets, he'll know where to put his radar and find you trying to notch. Radar off to bait you and then have the advantage of missile speed whilst sending your ET either into the ground of flared till dead. There is no win win in 1v1, these situations boil down to skill and luck. Give the Eagle a buddy and you're toast.

 

Yeah I was going to point out the flaw in his logic with the RWR. It works out since the bulk of F-15 pilots don't know how effective briefly turning off the radar can be to convincing a bandit to recommit face first into an AMRAAM.

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