Experienced BF-109 pilots - help needed - right roll level flight - ED Forums
 


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Old 01-01-2018, 12:30 PM   #1
Mud
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Default Experienced BF-109 pilots - help needed - right roll level flight

Hey folks,

I need some advice / knowledge:

Unless I'm mistaken, it's a known fact that BF109 pilots had to apply left rudder often. Hence the story goes they had strong left legs.

I cannot fly the plane level, no matter what manual prop pitch and ata I set. No problem really, just apply left rudder. The only problem there is that I get lactic acid in my left quads after 15 minutes. Yes I know, I need to work out

My question however is: applying the left rudder to stop the right roll tendency moves the slip ball a bit to the right. Which would mean drift, right? Is that how the plane was flown then? Ignore the drift and use your legs to counter the roll tendency? Wouldn't it make more sense to apply some left stick input?

Okay, that was more than one question. I'm pedantic when it comes to realism and I would really like to fly the plane as it was flown in real.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Best regards and happy 2018!

Mud
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:51 PM   #2
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Quote:
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My question however is: applying the left rudder to stop the right roll tendency moves the slip ball a bit to the right. Which would mean drift, right?
Right. And it's not a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud View Post
Wouldn't it make more sense to apply some left stick input?
Yes it would. Why are you not doing it then ? That's what ailerons are for.

The plane doesn't require any rudder input when flown at cruise settings (auto prop, 1.05-1.1 ATA, nose heavy trim), the ball remains centered and the very light wing drop can be dealt with by a tiny bit of a stick input. Or maybe even not - it has those adjustable aileron trim tabs in special options, doesn't it? I suppose you can dial out the roll completely with these (for one chosen power setting obviously), but someone really experienced with the plane will have to come here and suggest some numbers.

I fly it only occasionally for sighseeing, so I don't bother with them at all.
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Old 01-01-2018, 02:11 PM   #3
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Thank's for your reply, Art!

Done some more testing and ended up in the same boat basically.

What I did find odd though, is that on ramp and I press R-CRTL+ENTER my stick input is dead zero. As soon as I'm airborne, with stick neutral physically I get right stick input shown. So for some reason DCS is considering me putting in right stick while I'm not.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:28 PM   #4
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The diamond symbol on controls indicator doesn't show the physical stick position, but the virtual one, influenced not only by your input, but also by aero forces acting on controls. Thus it will match the real one only when the plane is standing, as there is no airflow over controls.

A bit to the right during flight you say? I don't remember how it should look, maybe you left some aileron trim on.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:40 AM   #5
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The most important part in Art-J message is here :
"The plane doesn't require any rudder input when flown at cruise settings (auto prop, 1.05-1.1 ATA, nose heavy trim)"
The plane is trimmed for specific regimes.
With auto prop activated, aim for 1.15ATA or 1.35ATA, they are the 2 values that give me the most stable aircraft
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:07 PM   #6
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Thanks for the input, ppl. I really appreciate it.

I have no trimming set at all apart from nose down. As pitch is the only trim you have in the pit anyway.

But I sure as hell have to either apply left rudder or left stick to fly level, no matter what regime I fly. Not that I find that in itself a problem as long as it's realistic.

What baffles me though is that some of you seem to imply you can fly hands and feet off as long as you're set at a certain engine regime.

Or are we talking on different frequencies here?
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud View Post
Thanks for the input, ppl. I really appreciate it.

I have no trimming set at all apart from nose down. As pitch is the only trim you have in the pit anyway.

But I sure as hell have to either apply left rudder or left stick to fly level, no matter what regime I fly. Not that I find that in itself a problem as long as it's realistic.

What baffles me though is that some of you seem to imply you can fly hands and feet off as long as you're set at a certain engine regime.

Or are we talking on different frequencies here?
The 109 has the option that rudder trim can be set by the crew on the ground. It is in that way normally trimmed to cruise speed at cruise altitute. So if you're flying her in cruise setting (Art-J's parameter look good to me), only minor control input is neccessary to maintain stable level flight. Hands of flying without AP is never recommended ;-)

I adjust throttle to balance her out rudder wise and trim here to +2 nose down.

At 3000m i normally end up at round about 420kph - in that region she is pretty stable and doesn't require much input iirc i'll check the numbers when i get home after work
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:07 PM   #8
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What baffles me though is that some of you seem to imply you can fly hands and feet off as long as you're set at a certain engine regime.
Well, hands off is out of question, as there will always be a bit of untrimmable tail heaviness and some right roll to deal with (though again, I'm sure there are guys over here who experimented with "special options" fixed aileron trim tab setting to dial the latter out).

Feet off, however - absolutely . I just tested it again to make sure. With prop on auto, one could argue that at 1.05 ATA and ~420 IAS the ball JUST touches the right bracket a tiny little bit, I'll give you that, but getting closer to 1.1-1.2 ATA and ~450 IAS it's dead center with no pedals input whatsoever.

... incidentally, right roll also becomes negligible then. It's there allright, but way smaller than pitch input required for level flight. Now, that one gets on my nervers somewhat.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:22 PM   #9
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The Trim on 109 simple a sheet Metal attached to the Aileron and rudder is bent by the Ground Crew (it is Red you can see this in game) to have at certain Speeds and Power settings stable Flight regime without touching the Controls.
And is not really necessary to Fly exact with slip Ball in the Middle from A to B.
Also rarely touch the Trim in the P-51 because you know latter exactly how much rudder and Aileron you need to fly Correct in combat situation and with the Planes Trimmed perfectly for certain cruse Speed you have latter unexpected rudder inputs at higher speeds.
Its a nice feature from London to Berlin but not really necessary currently in our Maps.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:02 PM   #10
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Right from the horse's mouth with no conjecture. Bottom line is the 109 was a pooch in the air with very little torque roll and flies "hands off". All the nasty habits were on the ground. Still we must fly the model we are given which appears to be more harsh than the real aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDMzZOOIFro

A good vid of a current pilot "chief test pilot Airbus" of a restored 109 having his brain picked from simmers like us about very specific quirks and how the 109 behaves. They ask him the EXACT question about torque roll during cruise and trim. NO RUDDER DURING CRUISE NEEDED. NO HANDS ON NEEDED. ELEVATOR NEUTRAL. MINIMAL TO NO TORQUE ROLL ADDING THROTTLE. IIRC he says 10mm from idle to full power. ALL issues with the 109 appear to be ON the ground. In the air it's a pooch.
Listen to him and he clears up a lot of misconceptions about the 109. After listening it appears DCS 109 is a little aggressive in the roll during cruise. He comments the 109 was trim neutral and harmonized but added 10 thousand were destroyed during t/o and landing. Another nugget was +1 trim on takeoff.

I have time in a few high powered, some overpowered small experimental aircraft. One was a small 2 seat Glasair 3 with 300+ HP engine that can hit almost 300 mph. Almost instant throttle and control response being very crisp but light. It's probably the closest thing I've flown to a warbird where you "fly the prop". Of course the 109 is made to kill and having trim neutral ability for pilot's comfort during cruise wasn't a concern.

All have a roll tendency and yes for sport flying that tilt does irk one accustomed to straight and level but that bird is made to kill. Don't recall the numbers but at cruise iirc I pulled prop back and can achieve a comfortable level flight which does have that slow creep from level. I keep it on auto as I do not fly the 109 worrying about a passenger in the back spilling her glass of wine.
Fly it hard. She is leaning cause it want's to turn towards the enemy and bring out the teeth.

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