Ukraine Boeing 737 with at least 160 aboard crashes

Ukraine Boeing 737 with at least 160 aboard comes down near Tehran.

Best wishes to everyone who lost a loved one on board.

Any 737 pilots on here ?

I have a question after this background:

I heard on Al Jazeera (& read on a website) that B-52s had taken of from Diego Garcia for Iran, and a little while later the POTUS tweeted "So far, so good!"

The FAA then told aircraft US aircraft not to enter the region "because of the risk of misidentification". Perhaps misidentification as B-52s ?

There's some discussion in the thread "DCS Unrestricted SATNAV"

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258499

about the regional disabling or deliberately degrading of GPS by the US in theatres of conflict to deny the opposition the ability to use it.

If the GPS were degraded & misled the aircraft's computer regarding the aircraft's altitude - could that bring a 737 down ?

If the GPS were degraded & misled the aircraft's computer regarding the aircraft's altitude - could that bring a 737 down ?

No.

Really ?

I Even if the GPS were deliberately sending signals designed to mislead ?

I'd have thought that if the GPS suddenly told the aircraft it was 3000m higher than it actually was, the AP would then try to take the aircraft down 3000m - which would be a problem if the aircraft was only 1000m off the ground.

I realise that if the AP were to suddenly try flying the aircraft into the ground the pilot's should intervene - but plenty of planes have crashed in circumstances where the pilots should have stopped the crash....

Really ?

 

I Even if the GPS were deliberately sending signals designed to mislead ?

 

I'd have thought that if the GPS suddenly told the aircraft it was 3000m higher than it actually was, the AP would then try to take the aircraft down 3000m - which would be a problem if the aircraft was only 1000m off the ground.

I realise that if the AP were to suddenly try flying the aircraft into the ground the pilot's should intervene - but plenty of planes have crashed in circumstances where the pilots should have stopped the crash....

AP does not rely on GPS for altitude.

:-)

Good to know.

Thanks.

176 dead so far.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-state-tv-says-ukrainian-034157630.html

AP does not rely on GPS for anything.

Directly no. Indirectly, it does. The AP may be coupled to the FMC which gets it position from INS updated by GPS and VOR/DME. However data is crosschecked. An unreliable GPS signal would be disregarded with a possible fallback to pure INS, so worst that GPS spoofing could achieve, is degraded navigation performance. But after T/O INS should be pretty spot on anyway.

Rest in peace. My deepest condolences to families.

My condolences to all who lost loved ones in this crash.

According to German public newscaster Tagesschau (link in German) and Flightradar24.com, these are some of the known facts at this time:

• The aircraft was a Boeing 737-800, operated by Ukraine International airlines, registration UR-PSR
  
• Flight PS752 from Tehran to Kyiv, take-off around 02:40 UTC (06:10 local time, if my math doesn't fail me)
  
• The aircraft was built in 2016 and purchased by the airline directly from Boeing
  
• Last maintenance on the aircraft had been performed 2 days prior (whatever that means)
  
• 176 souls on board: 167 passengers, 9 crew. 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians, 11 Ukrainian, 10 Swedes, 4 Afghans, 3 British, 3 German
  
• According to early reports, an engine had been on fire, but no Emergency had been declared by the pilots
  
• Both Iranian officials and the Ukrainian embassy initially spoke of a technical defect; the Ukrainian embassy later redacted their statement and says the statement was premature
  
• The "black box" has already been found (it doesn't mention if they mean the Flight Data Recorder, the Cockpit Voice Recorder, or both)
  

Here's the flight recording from Flightradar24.com:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ur-psr#236d2069

Looks like the aircraft performed an initial climb, with a slight right turn just before the crash, and the last recorded position was around 8000 ft MSL at a GS of 275 knots, some 18 kilometers from Imam Khomeini International Airport at 02:44 UTC (06:14 local), just north of the city of Parand.

According to Google Earth, the mountains in that region near the city of Parand crest at around 4000 ft MSL.

On the the previous flight PS752 on 6 January, performed by the exact same aircraft that crashed today, the aircraft continued straight ahead instead of turning right near today's crash site. At the time the aircraft reported its last location today, altitude and speed were comparable to the earlier flight (269 KGS at around 8000 ft MSL).

However data is crosschecked. An unreliable GPS signal would be disregarded with a possible fallback to pure INS, so worst that GPS spoofing could achieve, is degraded navigation performance.

That...

The GPS spoofing that so many is talking about all these NATO exercising GPS jamming etc is mainly for the civilians and such who doesn't know how to navigate, and then of course GPS guided weapons like artillery shells, glide bombs etc.

For aviation you have the map, all other independent instruments etc. Just same thing as on the sea, ships captains are required to know how to navigate using map and compass.

If someone is using solely the GPS without any skills or means to have backup.... They are completely doomed for stupidity.

BUT.... So many big accidents has happened because simple things has not engineered logically. Be it a nuclear reactor plants safety valves sensors checking simple thing like is a emergency door completely open, or is it a aircraft trimming system ignoring a sensor regardless its crosscheck is not performed etc.

Several photos of the wreckage reveal projectile puncture holes in wing, tail, fuselage. What caused the punctures? Onboard mechanical failure or... an external source.

27 people from Edmonton, Alberta.

27 people from Edmonton, Alberta.

167 passengers and nine crew members from different nations. Ukraine's foreign minister, Vadym Prystaiko, said that there were 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians and 11 Ukrainians on board — the Ukrainian nationals included two passengers and the nine crew. There were also 10 Swedish, four Afghan, three German and three British nationals, he said.

We know what it looks like when an aircraft of a similar type experiences simultaneous, double, total engine failure from the Sullenberger landing on the Hudson.

This does not resemble that in any way.

The appearance of tiny holes in fuselage pieces is hard to comment on, a lot of fragments flying around in any violent aircrash and aircraft skin is not particularly resistant to puncture.

Puncture holes do not signify a missile, but what would, would be a *particular pattern* of puncture holes, which will only be discoverable once the wreckage is re-constructed.

This is what happened in the case of the downing of that flight over the Ukraine some time ago, and further to that was the discovery of actual missile fragments that could be conclusively linked even to a particular type of missile.

I do not see the withholding of the black boxes, at this time, to be suspicious. Nations are not obligated to obey instructions given by US corporations and this is an internationally sensitive incident which has occurred only hours ago.

What this is though, is a MASSIVE coincidence. If this is somehow NOT linked to recent events, it'll be the coincidence of the century.

The one thing that does point to a shootdown, is total and instant loss of all contact on the ascent. Coupled with the aircraft burning significantly before impact, this indicates something quite violent happened. There are non-military explanations that could cover these circumstances (severe electrical fire, for example) but as details get added, they are running out (and getting more obscure) by the minute.

Very likely that this situation is still developing and we will hear much more about it in the coming days/weeks.

is mainly for the civilians and such who doesn't know how to navigate

Unfortunately this is not true.

Just a few years ago this would have been true, but the fact is that civilian aircraft control has transitioned to very heavy reliance on GPS telemetry, to the point where starting this year aircraft are prohibited from entry into certain civilian airspace without GPS equipment and sufficiently accurate position reception and transmission.

Unfortunately this is not true.

Just a few years ago this would have been true, but the fact is that civilian aircraft control has transitioned to very heavy reliance on GPS telemetry, to the point where starting this year aircraft are prohibited from entry into certain civilian airspace without GPS equipment and sufficiently accurate position reception and transmission.

Which is exactly one country. And even that is only for traffic awarness, hence the plane would not just fall out of the sky when GPS is gone.

We know what it looks like when an aircraft of a similar type experiences simultaneous, double, total engine failure from the Sullenberger landing on the Hudson.

 

This does not resemble that in any way.

Really? That has exactly zero relevance, and even if it did there are many variables that determine what condition a plane is in after it hits a solid object. Take off your tinfoil hat @@

As for GPS it had exactly ZERO relevance as well. Loss of GPS is at worst a tertiary/irrelevant system failure. It's not going to cause any crashes without extenuating other bizarre factors. Saying a pilot needs GPS is like saying a driver needs GPS. No. They do not. Anybody so reliant on GPS they're unable to function without it needs to be in a padded safespace -_-

Really? That has exactly zero relevance, and even if it did there are many variables that determine what condition a plane is in after it hits a solid object. Take off your tinfoil hat @@

That comment doesnt make any sense. Word Salad. Its irrelevant but even if it is, its irrelevant? What "solid object" are *you* talking about?

Its *directly* relevant, its a solid datapoint - this crash was not like that crash, therefore it is less likely to have similar cause (double engine failure - the initial stated cause, since rescinded).

Take a breath to read your words before hitting "submit" next time.

@@@ @@@@@@ @@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@ @@@@@@@@@@ ?????

Iranian Missile System Shot Down Ukraine Flight, Probably by Mistake, Sources Say

https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313

U.S. officials say it's 'highly likely' Iranian missile brought down Ukrainian airliner

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-missile-iran-1.5420736

TOR-M1 (9M330?) debris, allegedly found near the crash site. A reverse image search shows no hits older than 24 hours, so the pictures may be legit, but they could of course be from somewhere else.

Согласен ...

I did a simulation for how it probably went.

TOR-M1 (9M330?) debris, allegedly found near the crash site. A reverse image search shows no hits older than 24 hours, so the pictures may be legit, but they could of course be from somewhere else.

Welp. That doesn't look great.

Not the first time an airliner has been shot down either.

Tragic.

Don't remember how to put a vid in a post, but there's a video purporting to show the sam impacting.