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DCS: MiG-23MLA by RAZBAM


MrDieing

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Well you have to consider that the Mig-23 flown by the Libyans at the Sidra encounter was the Mig-23MS which was a very much downgraded model.

For example it had the RP-22 radar from the Mig-21 and if i remember correctly it was only able to carry the R-3/R-13 series of missiles

so not only was it unable to carry the R-23/R-24 BVR missiles it was also unable to carry the R-60 for close range encounters.

 

 

And it also lacked the IRST.

This overall made the Mig-23MS probably inferior to the Mig-21Bis in terms of combat capability as it had the same radar but inferior weapons while also being less agile.

 

 

The Mig-23MLA is on a whole different level from the Mig-23MS as it weighs less has a more powerfull engine and a Radar / weapon system that is miles ahead of the Mig-23MS (as it had a capable Radar with look down capability + the ability to carry the R-23 and R-24 BVR missiles in both Radar and IR guided forms).

 

So the Mig-23MLA outclasses the Mig-23MS in every way and is much more lethal.

 

While the F-14 still has the advantage over the MLA they might be in for a shock if they come in expecting an easy win.

 

Difference was huge, MS had R-27F2M-300 with trust dry/afetrburner 6900/10000 kg and only R-3S and R-13M ( even without R-3R ), MLA was over 1000 kg lighter and had R-35-300 with trust 8400/12750 kg and whole arsenal of missiles ( R-3S, R-13M, R-13M1, R-60, R-60M, R-23T/R, R-24T/R/MT/MR ), and totally ahead with weapon system, only navigation system was simmilar.

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And last but not the least, the training level of the Lybian pilots was probably below that of the US Navy.

 

 

Indeed.

 

And it would have been interesting to know if the outcome would have been any different if the two Mig-23s in the Sidra encounter had been had been Second gen Mig-23s (P,ML,MLA,MLD) flown by experienced well trained pilots.

 

 

As its possible the fight might have been different had that been the case considering how close they got to eachother.

 

Since the First missile launched by the F-14s that hit was launched about 8km

(third Aim-7 launched as the first two that were launched at 22km and 19 km had missed)

 

so that was well within the Capability of the R-23 or R-24 in a head on engagement

 

(Especially in the case of a R-24 as it could probably

 

have fired at around the time of the first or second shots taken by the F-14s)

 

so it would have at the very least been an exchange of missiles instead of the

 

one sided affair it was against the Libyans.

 

 

 

The F-14s would still have had the advantage but it would certainly have made for a much more even engagement.


Edited by mattebubben
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only navigation system was simmilar.

 

 

Shame the RSBN does not kill Cats :D

''Greed is a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction.''

Erich Fromm

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but still miles and miles ahead of DCS pilots :D

 

Maybe IRL but in a simulation i wouldnt be too sure ;)

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Well you have to consider that the Mig-23 flown by the Libyans at the Sidra encounter was the Mig-23MS which was a very much downgraded model.

For example it had the RP-22 radar from the Mig-21 and if i remember correctly it was only able to carry the R-3/R-13 series of missiles

so not only was it unable to carry the R-23/R-24 BVR missiles it was also unable to carry the R-60 for close range encounters.

 

 

The latest from the Libyan side including the official LAAF report into the incident is they were MiG-23MFs both armed with R-24/R-60/Cannon. (Iraq and Libya both modified MFs to carry R-24s in the mid 80s)

 

There were a lot of merges in periods during the 80s between US Navy and Libyan MiGs and most ended peacefully. They operated ML and MLD types by 1989 however one thing that Libyan pilots claim is that whenever they got near the US Navy their radar and comms were jammed.

 

The GCI controller claims in interview he tried to call the MiGs off - so more than likely that message never got through. A Libyan MLD would have been no better in that type of situation.

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As far as a I know, two Iranian F-14s were downed by Iraqi MiG-23MLs during the Irak-Iran war.

 

The Iraqi claims match with Iranian losses apparently so quite possibly - the Iraqi side were trying to to use particular tactics against the F-14s which often ended up in disaster but seems did work a few times.

 

On the other hand one Iraqi ML pilot might have made the mistake of trying to dogfight an F-5E

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I´m afraid this is wrong, most of the regular service types were standard on all services, with the same specifications. They received service updates (factory or field ones) as in any other country. Most of the differences are noticed by the series number, or a letter, like MIG-21Bis A, K, etc. But in any of this series there were hundreds of aircraft with the same parts and they were interchangeable no problem.

 

The MIG-23MLA will have an SPO-15 and the ability to mount ECM dispensers as many have them late in service life. Then, there will be an original one with SPO-10. No R-73 though.

 

Have not defined that one yet.

 

From my research and understanding, the only MiG-23MLAs that were upgraded in some similarity to how you describe were:

  • 16 Bulgarian MiG-23MLDs (alternatively referred to as "MLAE-2" or "izdeliye 23-22"), which were MLAs upgraded to the MLD avionics fit, with upgraded H008 "Sapfir-23MLA-2" radars and SPO-10 changed to the SPO-15, but without any provision for countermeasures or dogtooth wing root leading edge modification
  • 50 Syrian MiG-23MLDs (alternatively "MLAE" or "izdeliye 23-19"), which were MLAs upgraded to the MLD avionics fit, with H003 "Sapfir-23MLA" radars (as in the original MLA) and upgraded to the SPO-15, again without dogtooth leading edges, but with a locally designed countermeasure modification.

With the exception of these two sets of aircraft, I find no evidence whatsoever, through photo or corroborating text sources, of MiG-23MLA aircraft posessing countermeasure dispensers or SPO-15 RWRs.

 

Given that the options you have been stated in terms of allowing for modification, I would suggest that they seem to really only be reflective of the Syrian izdeliye 23-19, which is a rather small subset of all MLA production and arguably not an MLA at all but an MLD upgrade.

 

While there are claims that Soviet MiG-23ML(A)s were fitted with countermeasure dispensers during the Soviet Afghan War, I have yet to find any evidence that this is true (and suspect it is an issue of misidentification), as all images of dispenser-carrying MiG-23s in Afghanistan are of MLDs, again distinguishable by the dogtooth wing root.

 

If you have sources that suggest the contrary, could you provide them? I am not trying to be confrontational but would like the module to be as representative of a proper MiG-23MLA's capabilities as possible.

 

Some sources (I understand these may be of varying reliability, however they all seem to point towards the same conclusion):

[1][2][3][4][5]

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Hi Commie,

 

don´t worry, I understand you. You and everyone else are welcome to bring some research or ask for proof regarding anything we do.

 

I have a good set of data (including photos) of the MiG-23 use during the Afghan war. There´re indeed some MLA being used there, but the images are from weird angles, that doesn´t allow to see the racks or SPO anntenas. But, there´re at leats three UB variants that clearly had the CM mounted. So in this case, I do not expect a mixed esquadron with CM on MLDs and UBs and not on MLAs. That´s somehow a logical supposition.

 

Second, I´m in the process of confirming if some MLAs were indeed updated with the avionics.

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Hi Commie,

 

don´t worry, I understand you. You and everyone else are welcome to bring some research or ask for proof regarding anything we do.

 

I have a good set of data (including photos) of the MiG-23 use during the Afghan war. There´re indeed some MLA being used there, but the images are from weird angles, that doesn´t allow to see the racks or SPO anntenas. But, there´re at leats three UB variants that clearly had the CM mounted. So in this case, I do not expect a mixed esquadron with CM on MLDs and UBs and not on MLAs. That´s somehow a logical supposition.

 

Second, I´m in the process of confirming if some MLAs were indeed updated with the avionics.

 

Poking around for two-seater MiG-23s with countermeasures, I found the following interesting image:

1_30.jpg

For those who can't read Russian, it says "MiG-23UM of the 120th IAP, Bagram airfield, November 1988"

 

Following up on this I looked for information on a "UM" variant and found a number of references to it as an upgrade of MiG-23UBs to incorporate ML series improvements, starting in 1984. Given that MiG-23MLDs were in production by then (in fact, the last year they were produced), it seems logical that they would add the improvements of that model, which would include the ability to mount countermeasure dispensers, as those mounts were part of the airframe modification

 

Now, I haven't yet managed to find a real life picture of a two-seater MiG-23 with countermeasures yet (if you could post yours that may be helpful), but I believe that this would explain the seemingly contradictory information you found.

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From my research and understanding, the only MiG-23MLAs that were upgraded in some similarity to how you describe were:

  • 16 Bulgarian MiG-23MLDs (alternatively referred to as "MLAE-2" or "izdeliye 23-22"), which were MLAs upgraded to the MLD avionics fit, with upgraded H008 "Sapfir-23MLA-2" radars and SPO-10 changed to the SPO-15, but without any provision for countermeasures or dogtooth wing root leading edge modification
  • 50 Syrian MiG-23MLDs (alternatively "MLAE" or "izdeliye 23-19"), which were MLAs upgraded to the MLD avionics fit, with H003 "Sapfir-23MLA" radars (as in the original MLA) and upgraded to the SPO-15, again without dogtooth leading edges, but with a locally designed countermeasure modification.

With the exception of these two sets of aircraft, I find no evidence whatsoever, through photo or corroborating text sources, of MiG-23MLA aircraft posessing countermeasure dispensers or SPO-15 RWRs.

 

Given that the options you have been stated in terms of allowing for modification, I would suggest that they seem to really only be reflective of the Syrian izdeliye 23-19, which is a rather small subset of all MLA production and arguably not an MLA at all but an MLD upgrade.

 

 

MiG-23ML "23-19" never was exported, because she existed only as sole prototype ( today she rots in Monino museum ). All export MLD variants were "23-22", for Bulgaria "23-22A" subvariant, for others countries "23-22B" ( Syria, Libya ). All "23-22" aircrafts wasn't upgraded MLA's, they were new machines built from scratch as export MLD.

 

Only MLA's upgraded with new SPO and ASO during service are iraqi machines. Check post 39 in this thread.

 

 

For those who can't read Russian, it says "MiG-23UM of the 120th IAP, Bagram airfield, November 1988"

 

Following up on this I looked for information on a "UM" variant and found a number of references to it as an upgrade of MiG-23UBs to incorporate ML series improvements, starting in 1984. Given that MiG-23MLDs were in production by then (in fact, the last year they were produced), it seems logical that they would add the improvements of that model, which would include the ability to mount countermeasure dispensers, as those mounts were part of the airframe modification

 

Now, I haven't yet managed to find a real life picture of a two-seater MiG-23 with countermeasures yet (if you could post yours that may be helpful), but I believe that this would explain the seemingly contradictory information you found.

 

 

Something like MiG-23UM never existed, Soviets only modernized over 270 own aircraft in begining of 80's. Aircrafts got new transponder, IFF system, few small changes in SAU system, small changes in weapon system ( ability to use B-8 launchers and R-60 ). In all documents modernized aircrafts were still called MiG-23UB. Modernized UB's are easy recognizable, all four external differences on one photo:

 

 

ac6107dd412cbadc.jpg

 

 

About 10-15 aircrafts which saw service in Afghan war got KDS dispensers. Few photos exists:

 

 

 

beea5dad50e43202.jpg

 

 

38b59c784c19bfc1.jpg

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Alright, I'm seeing other sources that support your information as well.

 

Regardless, can we both agree that none of these variants can properly be considered an MLA? The export variants were marketed as MLDs and the Iraqi modifications appear to be modified in a similar manner.

 

As such, I would maintain that countermeasure dispensers and SPO-15 as options would be inaccurate for a simulation of the MiG-23MLA.

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As such, I would maintain that countermeasure dispensers and SPO-15 as options would be inaccurate for a simulation of the MiG-23MLA.

 

Hence the stated reason behind making SPO-15/CM optional. For those people/servers that want a struck MLA, it's SPO-10/no CM. For those players/servers who want an MLD-ish MIG-23, they have the option of SPO-15/CMs.

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You may be right, but since they have decided to develop two versions, very wisely, you will have the option to fly it with SPO-10 and no CM.

 

 

Also seems pretty likely that MLAs operating in hot scenarios would be rapidly retrofitted with CMs if it was at all possible.

 

 

Exactly!


Edited by HWasp
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Hence the stated reason behind making SPO-15/CM optional. For those people/servers that want a struck MLA, it's SPO-10/no CM. For those players/servers who want an MLD-ish MIG-23, they have the option of SPO-15/CMs.

At that point it is not an MLA, it is an export model MLD, and to be accurately represented should include all the other changes that come with it. It isn't just adding SPO-15 and countermeasures.

Also seems pretty likely that MLAs operating in hot scenarios would be rapidly retrofitted with CMs if it was at all possible.

This is purely speculation, which makes no sense to base any decision off of.

You may be right, but since they have decided to develop two versions, very wisely, you will have the option to fly it with SPO-10 and no CM.

My concern is that given the option, the vast majority of players will choose the more capable one, and that does not accurately represent the capabilities of an actual MiG-23MLA.

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Alright, I'm seeing other sources that support your information as well.

 

Regardless, can we both agree that none of these variants can properly be considered an MLA? The export variants were marketed as MLDs and the Iraqi modifications appear to be modified in a similar manner.

 

As such, I would maintain that countermeasure dispensers and SPO-15 as options would be inaccurate for a simulation of the MiG-23MLA.

 

 

Well, Iraqi aircrafts were proper MLA's ( N003E radar ), SPO and ASO addition not make them MLD-ish ( I'm sure that whole modernization was with Soviet support ), Iraqis modernized in simmilar way Su-22M's ( Iraq-Iran war needed this ), later those improvement were "moved" to Syria's and Vietnam's Sukhoi's.

All those changes only seems to be simmilar because in general MLA and MLD share about 85-90 % of the same stuff. Differences are only in weapon system ( new N008 radar, which is not completely new but modified N003 ) and aerodynamical changes ( wing 33 deg position instead 45 deg ) and those big KDS dispensers.

 

 

If you wanna be hard simmer, for Iraqi skin you will fly with SPO and ASO, for all rest without that stuff. In my opinion MLA with extra stuff will suit for Gulf Map very well, for others map we should get MLD ( which is my big dream ).:joystick:

 

 

 

 

Yes Ub's saw combat in Afghan war, for FAC duties mostly and some AAA suppression.


Edited by foxbat155
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Are the bolt on CM dispensers we see on MiG-21 or something like them compatible with MiG-23 at all?

 

The dispensers seen in DCS: MiG-21bis are actually an experimental Yugoslav modification made to their MiGs [1] and not an ASO-2 as the module claims. Russian MiG-21s did not use the Yugoslav dispensers at all but rather dispensers of the form seen on the bottom of the ECM pod [2].

 

Regardless, neither of those modifications were used with the MiG-23. The spine dispensers (BVP-50-60) had specific mounts for them in the airframe from the MLD modification, and could not simply be attached at will.

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