JSOW is OP

Ok, now that we have JSOW how do you design a mission that is interesting or challenging when a couple of Hornets can destroy all your air defenses and your runways from 40 miles away with zero risk. Even on maps where red units are not visible you will be able to use the TGP/ATFLIR to locate targets with impunity. I know this is a simulator and realism is what is desired (if I were a Hornet driver IRL I would not be upset about breaking stuff from 40 miles away) but seems to me game play is going to suffer.

Sorry about clickbait title....kinda:)

You design your missions around certain scenarios, eg. GPS if being jammed by russians, or you have the mission set before 1998(when jsow was made), or you have budgetary restrictions, or some ROE that prohibits stand off weapon usage.

It should be Mission Editor's choice use stuff or not.

SA-15.

When the Hornet has all its weapons/sensors and the Viper is out and complete, I suspect you will see a lot of weapons that could be regarded as "OP" from a certain point of view.

The problem that you seem to be talking about is not a "OP" problem but a mission design issue. Like it or not, as we get more advanced, more capable platforms/weapons in DCS, the standard issue multiplayer scenarios will need to adapt to keep up. If air defenses are getting defeated by JSOW's then it falls on the mission designers to lay out better, more effective air defense. If Hornets are getting close enough to enemy airfields to deploy the JSOW effectively then maybe the airfields that each team are using need to be spaced out further.

There are a lot of ways that mission designers and even players can adapt to these weapons but they need to be willing to do so in the first place.

You design your missions around certain scenarios, eg. GPS if being jammed by russians, or you have the mission set before 1998(when jsow was made), or you have budgetary restrictions, or some ROE that prohibits stand off weapon usage.

I think a big thing that people don't realize is that GPS can be jammed or spoofed. I believe the Iraqis did it in the 2003 war. OF course there are counters to that too. And of course none of it simulated in DCS currently. But for scenario or online server design, either make the munition unavailable, or limited logistically as suggested, there can be a million reasons from the "gameplay" standpoint.

If you want "realism" consider the fact the TLAM and other ALCM's aren't in DCS AFAIK, and they would basically be "wave 1" in any opening war. And there are very real considerations as to how many of of those to shoot, because you don't have an unlimited amount or budget, and replacement can take years. PGM use in GW1 was limited precisely for these reasons.

SA-15.

Well the JSOW is "stealth" so the SA-15 should have hard time with it. JSOW was partly designed to defeat systems like Sa-15.

You design your missions around certain scenarios, eg. GPS if being jammed by russians, or you have the mission set before 1998(when jsow was made), or you have budgetary restrictions, or some ROE that prohibits stand off weapon usage.

what youre describing just takes JSOW out of the equation completely. I'm asking how you design a mission using all the toys and still make it interesting. JSOW just seems to be easy mode. A flight of Hornets with JSOW covered by Tomcats and Eagles can take out an entire airfield (or two) from halfway across the map. I'm not arguing against using your advantage as blue, I'm just saying it has the potential to be very boring after awhile. At the end of the day this is a game.

Well the JSOW is "stealth" so the SA-15 should have hard time with it. JSOW was designed to defeat systems like Sa-15.

Tell that to the DCS units :D

SA-15.

JSOW's will make quick work of SA 15's. Not even sure if you can defend against it with SA 10.

SA-15.

Will sa-15 target jsow? I know it will target Mavericks and HARMs.

Also- I recently saw an article (don’t remember where) which talked about how air power and SAMs have historically gone back and forth in which was more powerful, but for the last several decades air power has essentially triumphed (assuming unlimited munitions) due to the range and precision of modern air launched munitions.

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what youre describing just takes JSOW out of the equation completely. I'm asking how you design a mission using all the toys and still make it interesting. JSOW just seems to be easy mode. A flight of Hornets with JSOW covered by Tomcats and Eagles can take out an entire airfield (or two) from halfway across the map. I'm not arguing against using your advantage as blue, I'm just saying it has the potential to be very boring after awhile. At the end of the day this is a game.

What about defending from AirPower with more AirPower? A few f14s will keep the ground pounders on their toes.

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Shoot down the hornets before they can launch.

Huge your units.

JSOW effect on runways is very temporary for an organized force.

This conversation is going too fast. By the time I write something it’s already answered by 3 people! :)

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If air defenses are getting defeated by JSOW's then it falls on the mission designers to lay out better, more effective air defense

My point is there aren't "more effective" air defenses currently available, especially as they are currently modeled.

JSOW`s are not OP, they can reach max firing range = 70 nm, so 40 nm is quite normal range, especially in high altitude release.

JSOW-A is even too weak compared to real one, it can`t destroy even light-armor targets, and it can be used successfully only vs trucks and radars ATM.

I haven't used JSOW myself yet, but I've seen the AI fail to use it in a standoff manner due to terrain on the PG map. Mountains are even larger on the Black Sea map and might reduce range even further.

Also layered air defenses with more intelligent SAM's ahead of targets should make things more difficult. It's popular to set these up with LUA, but they can be done with triggers only.

Shoot down the hornets before they can launch.

 

Huge your units.

 

JSOW effect on runways is very temporary for an organized force.

Going to be tough to shoot down the Hornets when they can launch from so far away covered by F 14's but maybe. Do we currently have the ability to repair runways? I know AI will not take off or land on damaged runways. Not sure how long the effect lasts though.

JSOW`s are not OP, they can reach max firing range = 70 nm, so 40 nm is quite normal range, especially in high altitude release.

JSOW-A is even too weak compared to real one, it can`t destroy even light-armor targets, and it can be used successfully only vs trucks and radars ATM.

I'm not arguing that they are not simulated to their full potential. I'm simply saying they present large problems to interesting mission design and game play.

Ok, now that we have JSOW how do you design a mission that is interesting or challenging when a couple of Hornets can destroy all your air defenses and your runways from 40 miles away with zero risk.

In the reality the Hornets would not have a change to approach the airfield anywhere near 300km radius.

There is no such thing as "Stand Off Weapon" as you never are being in such position to be in safe engage such targets.

How many carrier would allow any enemy fighter to fly 40 miles from it?

What would any base commander do if the enemy forces are already 40 miles from the airbase?

What kind a general would have his job if he has allowed enemy fighters to reach a 40 miles range from the airbase?

The reason why the JSOW are "OP" is because the mission designers do not create realistic scenarios and DCS doesn't support a realistic tens of thousands of units war.

There’s a reason every Russian SAM after the SA-3 was designed to be mobile. A competent SAM commander would move his launchers around, put up decoys, etc. anything but keep his SAMs stationary and exposed in the open.

what youre describing just takes JSOW out of the equation completely. I'm asking how you design a mission using all the toys and still make it interesting. JSOW just seems to be easy mode. A flight of Hornets with JSOW covered by Tomcats and Eagles can take out an entire airfield (or two) from halfway across the map. I'm not arguing against using your advantage as blue, I'm just saying it has the potential to be very boring after awhile. At the end of the day this is a game.

Make them penetrate airspace thats actually well defended. Like layered SAM threats backed up by modern mig threats coming in from different vectors. Also I'm not sure if DCS can do it but IRL there are absolutely ways to make SAM traps, wherein not all radars are on, and only switch on when the package is well within range and detected by EWR's etc. Make sure the airfield has point defense anti-missile assets (not sure how DCS does it with JSOW, but SA-15's and tungaskas can shoot down Harms no problem)

If you are using online servers like inferno or GAW as your "reference" for what a modern battlefield looks like you are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

Will sa-15 target jsow? I know it will target Mavericks and HARMs.

Almost anything will target anything, given the right circumstances — it's more a function of detection ranges and acquisition times than what their actual capabilities are (or should be).

If you set them up right, you'll see M6:es engage and defeat MLRS rockets; SA-8:s defeating various assorted AGMs, and of course the double-digit SA systems will happily shoot just about anything they detect within range. Some of these require player input (up to and including direct control via CA) because the AI is too slow to react, but it can still be done.

The SA-15 is just among the more annoying because of its mix of detection speed and engagement range (and ability to just scoot out of the way) — the SA-19, in comparison, has quicker detection but that doesn't help because it generally can't shoot until it's too late. Of course, that's assuming you're shooting directly at these systems. If you layer them as something the ordnance has to travel past to get to a target, they'll have a much easier time getting their shots in.

This, along with elevation restrictions, is why you really want to mix a lot of overlapping unit of varying capabilities if you want to ruin the players' day: it's actually surprisingly easy to get underneath an SA-10's coverage — ok, a bit of terrain will help immensely, but that's often quite easy to find — and get in so close that it can no longer engage effectively. It becomes hellalot harder if that site is covered by secondary SA-11, -15, or -19 sites (to say nothing of sneaky-bastard -13 and -24s hiding in the treeline). You hide from one, which exposes you to another, and unless you bring such excessive amounts of ordnance that you can fully shave off every layer, one after the other in succession, any weapons aimed at one site can very easily be intercepted by another.

need more "OP" planes like b-1 or b-52. Now that we have jdam, jsow. The f18 can only carry a limited amount.

Servers where I play already banned it.

That's kind off what I figured would happen. I think multiplayer servers especially are going to have a difficult time. Not much fun when everybody goes blue because red has no chance. Pretty soon red will be all AI with the occasional human masochist.