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is there a way to disable the landing-by-throttle thing?


Larkis

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To be honest, i HATE the Way the controls switch when the hornet goes to landing mode.

 

 

Maybe im the only one in the world who has problem with this but i just dont get used to it.

 

 

Everathing works fine when i go into the break. But when i put flaps to landing mode and put the gear down and stop pitching (but try to hold the role cause its mostly only 120° from the 180° turn? everything goes to hell.

 

 

The plane point the nose into the air caus im to fast, or it point the nose intro the ground cause its to slow. I reaching 1500+ft or 250-ft right after the break and the few seconds in the abeam are not enough time to get a good On-Speed-Trimm and go back to 600ft.

 

 

 

So when i manage it and start the groove i have o much trouble holding the height and roll the plane without pitching that i overshoot most of the time and when i try to compensate it i got so fast (cause dharper turn + same height = more speed) that after the turn the nose goes up and i fly 500-600ft above the landing deck.

 

 

I love the hornet, but adfter all that months i HATE CASE1 soso much that i dont want to fly anymore.

 

 

My last hope: Is there a way to disable that fly-by-wire-landing shit? I dont want the throttle to controll my pitch. I want my pitch to controll my pitch. I want land my hornet like i would land a A10C on an Airfield. Stick to controll pitch and roll, Throttle to controll thr thruster-output.

 

 

 

Its o annoying. I dly with 250kn into the break, wait 2nm on tacan before i got into break,only to have neough time to stabilize the aircraft. But even than i suck 75% of the time. :mad:

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No. That's how it works in real life and this is a simulation. I'm not sure you really understand the relationship between power, flaps, trim, etc. Let me try to clarify, might help-

 

Basically when you go full flaps you turn off the auto-trim-to-1g feature, causing a massive pitch up moment.

 

So in your break, 350kts, 3g pull, put the speed break out immediately (and leave it out) you should drop speed VERY fast, and have your gear down and flaps to full before you finish your break turn, give it gentile stick forward as you roll out to keep your altitude in check, as you speed drops through 170-160-150 you should be trimming it up as you release forward pressure on the stick ending with a centered vv in the E bracket, close the speed break. You NEED, absolutely NEED, to trim the plane out to 'on-speed' with the velocity vector centered on the E bracket requiring no pitch inputs from the stick. Practice trimming it to on-speed just flying straight and level and slow.

 

Once you get it trimmed out to on-speed, using the throttle to manage altitude isn't so hard, takes some practice but isn't hard. Trying to do it without trimming the plane to on-speed is like trying to wrestle snakes while herding cats at the same time.

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i think you missunderstand me, sorry for that.

 

 

I know that i need to trimm onspeed. my problem is that the plane is not controllable for me when im onspeed.

 

 

My problem is that after im onspeed that the throttle controll the pitch. lets i i fly straight and im on-speed and Velocity Vektor is on the horizon. When i now reduce speed a little bit, the Vektor drops under the horizon and i climb down. If i add speed i climb up. I have huge problems just to hold the velocitvector on the horizon line. And when i touch the pitch-xis i loose the e-braket.

 

 

I dont get into it. It feels more like a bullride then flying an airplane.

 

 

 

So i got a lot problems just for a case 3 landing or a landing without landingpattern. it work mostly but its an absolute mess.

 

 

And doing the groove while landing mode and on-speed just dont work. I loose control after the break, dont have the time to stabilize the plane before i must into the groove, then im ess up the groove, i need to make a sharper turn, thats means more speed and after the turn the jet jumps right into the air cause the pitch goes up.

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So in your break, 350kts, 3g pull, put the speed break out immediately (and leave it out) you should drop speed VERY fast, and have your gear down and flaps to full before you finish your break turn

 

I wouldn't do that cause dropping the speed too quickly in a sharp break turn will easily result in a stall...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Try this mod to get an idea of where your trim is. Might help a bit.

 

Fly in landing configuration and trim for on speed. Take a note of where the white cross is on the controls indicator.

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3300978/

 

Also try entering the break at a lower speed or spend longer in the downwind. Practice case 1 over an airfield. Fly circuits in landing configuration using the throttle to maintain correct pitch. It's very satisfying once you get it.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I know how to land the F/A-18 very well after about 2-3 tries after I bought the F/A-18 module back on May 30th!!! Properly trim the airplane and keep adjusting the throttle for on-speed is the key to a successful landing!!! Woohoo!!

 

Cheers,

Vincent

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I cheat a little bit.

 

During large power changes, I will use pitch inputs to smooth out the large pitch changes. While trimmed to proper AoA, I will push slightly against the trim to stabilize pitch, and wait for the e bracket to come back into place. Therefore, it’s kind of a hybrid, where I place the pitch indicator where it needs to be and use throttle to keep the bracket centered.

 

I know it’s not entirely accepted, but I find it helps a lot with the “bucking bull” tendency. And I do mean just smoothing out pitch, not flying entirely by pitch.


Edited by Sandman1330

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You need more practice out of the pattern Larkis

 

 

Watch the control indicator in this video and see how little stick control input is needed.

 

Just fly around on speed and learn how and why it's built to do it this way for the navy.

 

My last hope: Is there a way to disable that fly-by-wire-landing shit? I dont want the throttle to controll my pitch. I want my pitch to controll my pitch. I want land my hornet like i would land a A10C on an Airfield. Stick to controll pitch and roll, Throttle to controll thr thruster-output.

 

Once on speed you don't control the pitch with the stick, you stay on speed and go up and down using the throttle. Why? Wing coefficient, you will gain height quicker with more throttle. You will slow down quicker and stall pitching up (Aero braking), as the wing is at the optimum AOA angle for lift when on speed.

 

Take a look at this thread and watch the first video by a real former F/A18 pilot.

 

This is the best way to SEE this. Watch how much pitching when these guy's are landing, it's all in the throttle.

 

The LSO's look at the canopy level with the vertical stabilizers /rudders for movement in pitch.

 

 

Why no change in pitch?

 

It's slower flying on speed, to make it easier to land on the carrier.

 

And

 

aircraft-carrier-58.jpg

 

The hook to deck angle DOES not change, so you always have a good chance to hook a wire. The on speed angle is the most optimal angle to be at when landing.

That's also why there is no flare (Angle change) when landing.

 

.


Edited by David OC

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I think what you may be missing is the transition from high-speed flight to 'slow flight' and the change in relationship between control inputs and power inputs.

 

Basically, when you're flying at 'high speeds' without the flaps (which make a LOT of drag along with a LOT of lift) your control inputs dictate whether you climb or descend. When you transition to 'slow flight', you're generally dropping the flaps which creates more lift and can give you that 'balloon' feeling when you drop them because you have a sudden increase in lift and drag. Once you've entered 'slow flight' your pitch no longer controls your altitude (climb and descent). Instead, it controls your airspeed - nose down for more airspeed, nose up for less - while your power setting (throttle) controls your climb/descent rate.

 

 

After reading the OP, I believe what you're struggling with is the mental change from pitch controlling climb/descent to power controlling climb/descent. I suggest taking the hornet out and practicing some slow flight (130-150 KIAS) and hold a random altitude, then practice climbing and descending 500 feet from that altitude until you can do that by using the throttle to climb or descend and the attitude of the aircraft to maintain airspeed. Once you can maintain a +/- 5 KIAS climb and descent to + or - 500 feet from your altitude, I suggest trying again with the carrier landings. This is one of the first things we learn as real pilots - controlling the aircraft in 'slow flight' because that's how you approach any airfield or even a ship which is just a really short, portable airfield.

 

 

Cheers!

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So although everyone above is completely correct with their tips for landing normally, there actually will be an alternative for you at some point (I'm not sure if it's in yet!). ATC Approach mode flips everything on its head, and the AP controls the throttle to maintain AOA and all you have to do is control glide-slope with your stick using pitch inputs. So you'd just need to point the velocity vector at the deck on a 3deg slope and the plane will follow that course at the correct AOA. I think that'll actually offer you what you're after.

 

There's also ACLS that'll come along at some point which will basically land the Hornet for you.

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So although everyone above is completely correct with their tips for landing normally, there actually will be an alternative for you at some point (I'm not sure if it's in yet!). ATC Approach mode flips everything on its head, and the AP controls the throttle to maintain AOA and all you have to do is control glide-slope with your stick using pitch inputs. So you'd just need to point the velocity vector at the deck on a 3deg slope and the plane will follow that course at the correct AOA. I think that'll actually offer you what you're after.

 

There's also ACLS that'll come along at some point which will basically land the Hornet for you.

 

I think the ATC mode won't be 'easy mode' as you'll still have to maintain on-glide AoA within the 'E' bracket while pointing at the right spot on the deck otherwise you'll come in hot or too slow, right? The ATC AFAIK only maintains 'on speed' within the E bracket.

 

 

Cheers!

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I cheat a little bit. During large power changes, I will use pitch inputs to smooth out the large pitch changes.

That's not cheating. If you have to make really gross corrections you have to make pitch corrections as well.

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That pitch up is interesting still...

 

I've been watching how these guy's quickly deal with it with touch and go's / bolter etc.

 

It's doesn't look like there is any forward stick / down elevator at all after getting up to pattern height.

 

Just drop the wing.

 


Edited by David OC

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That pitch up is interesting still...

 

I've been watching how these guy's quickly deal with it with touch and go's / bolter etc.

 

It's doesn't look like there is any forward stick / down elevator at all after getting up to pattern height.

 

Just drop the wing.

 

 

That's because they're flying a stabilized approach which means they've established the aircraft in a specific descent profile and trimmed on-speed AoA and they're managing glideslope with power. Once you trim the plane up it will fly itself as long as you maintain everything in balance.

 

The way I was taught IRL is to establish a 'dirtied up' 500 fpm descent at midfield on the downwind leg, trim the airplane for proper approach speed, then just steer it through base/final. That gives you a perfectly stabilized approach that'll give you a 'greaser' every time.

 

I've had a lot of success in DCS using the same principles.

 

 

Cheers!

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That's because they're flying a stabilized approach which means they've established the aircraft in a specific descent profile and trimmed on-speed AoA and they're managing glideslope with power. Once you trim the plane up it will fly itself as long as you maintain everything in balance.

 

The way I was taught IRL is to establish a 'dirtied up' 500 fpm descent at midfield on the downwind leg, trim the airplane for proper approach speed, then just steer it through base/final. That gives you a perfectly stabilized approach that'll give you a 'greaser' every time.

 

I've had a lot of success in DCS using the same principles.

 

Cheers!

 

I was thinking the model may be off pitching up so much? Watching that video I don't think it is off, just an interesting way to get her back to on speed in level flight without forcing the nose over.

 

I know many here are have problems coming out of the break slow enough to be on speed and do the ballooning thing. (Hold the nose level if you have to:)) That comes back to not pulling enough G's thou the break and getting the gear and flaps out by the 90 degree mark, so as you come out wings level you are at the 140ish kts mark and starting to trim out on speed. Any higher and your going up lol.

 

Thanks for the reply S.

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I don't worry too much about being at the right AoA or other parameters for a landing with the F/A-18 and I don't think you should either.

 

Just maintain ~150kts, half-flaps, gear down and keep the 'E' marker close-ish to the middle notch. Then just slam the plane down onto the runway. You can flare a bit at the end to make the landing a bit smoother. Just don't stall it. Walk your throttles to maintain ~150kts.

 

After a few tries you'll get a feel for flying at the "right" AoA and descent rate to stick landings 9/10 times. I don't find reading too much into the documentation or proper procedures as being too helpful for T/O and landings. You gotta feel the plane out.

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.. During large power changes, I will use pitch inputs to smooth out the large pitch changes. ..

Wingnut YT

 

Real 'short' carrier brake

 

 

Watch his hands and watch his head where he's looking in the break, and you can infer where in the break he is.

 

You can see left hand movement lowering gear and flaps,

 

then you see a massive correction of his right hand flight stick forward when the pilot compensates for gear and flaps down.

 

You can also watch him use his thumb (timing blindly) to trim the F-18 at ~45 nearing the end of the break.

 

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I know that i need to trimm onspeed. my problem is that the plane is not controllable for me when im onspeed.

 

My problem is that after im onspeed that the throttle controll the pitch. lets i i fly straight and im on-speed and Velocity Vektor is on the horizon. When i now reduce speed a little bit, the Vektor drops under the horizon and i climb down. If i add speed i climb up. I have huge problems just to hold the velocitvector on the horizon line. And when i touch the pitch-xis i loose the e-braket.

 

While it's hard to know exactly what's going wrong without a video, I'll try to come up with some advice that might be helpful.

 

1) Aircraft weight

 

How heavy is your aircraft? If you're heavier than around 33-34k lbs, it will be very hard to stay on-speed in a turn without going afterburner circus mode in 180 kts. (not to mention this pretty much corresponds with the "max trap weight" anyway)

 

2) Rocking the throttle (like a maniac)

 

When flying on-speed, and aiming for a certain altitude, or a certain rate of descent, you really gotta work actively with the throttle. I mean litterally going aggressively between between idle and mil and back, sometimes several times in a second. As the velocity vector starts to stabilize, make smaller motions, but keep rocking it, back and forth back and forth. Never let it come to rest.

 

Watch this Super Etendard pilot's left hand to get an idea about how you probably under-estimate how active you gotta be:

(even though I admit I find it a little bit extreme, but I think he knows better than me)

 

3) Anticipate the reaction, don't wait for it

 

When you get the feeling "ooooh shit I'm looow". Go mil power, or even afterburner for that matter. Be aggressive! BUT, do NOT wait for the reaction before pulling the throttle back again. You have to trust the plane in that it WILL come up, so pull the throttle back BEFORE you even feel the aircraft's reaction (otherwise you will always over-compensate).

 

This is hard. But you will get the feeling for it. And it will come faster if you're trying to think about it (in the beginning) rather than only "going on feeling" Luke Skywalker style. :)

 

4) Extend the upwind

 

Feel free to pass the carrier and continue for a few nm straight! It's fine! You say you're having problems with not having enough time to find 600 feet and on-speed AOA on the downwind. So just extend the upwind until you can do it without stress. That's MUCH better than starting the abeam final turn on the wrong numbers. When practicing, if you're not level flight on-speed at 600 ft when reaching the abeam position (time for final turn), just start over and extend the upwind even more.

 

5) Brake in the break

 

As you enter the break (i.e going from upwind to downwind), deploy the airbrake just when you start the high-G turn. Personally, I find it VERY hard to come down to ~150kts (which is required to avoid the ballooning effect) if I don't use the airbrake in the break.

 

You probably already know, but it's also good (and recommended/realistic) to deploy your full flaps and gear in the middle of this break (as soon as you go below 250 kts). Imo, the helps a lot since it makes the balloon effect more subtle and gradual, comparing to going dirty when wings are level.

 

6) Practice tools and techniques

 

If you want, you can use the CASE 1 training mission I created, if you feel it's of any help. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=221412

 

More importantly though, follow S's excellent advice of just flying around at on-speed. In your mind, decide a new altitude and practice getting there with throttle only. Stabilize (rock that throttle!), then pick a new altitude, and repeat. Pick some nice area on the map and it will be a fun sortie! I promise you that after practicing this for merely 20 minutes, you will be a freakin' ace on throttle control! When you're comfortable, do the same exercise, but when holding a 25-30 degree turn.

 

Good luck! Let us know how things are progressing! :pilotfly:


Edited by Bankler
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Not only is he going nuts with the throttle but he's doing the same with pitch.

 

Yea he seems to be using quite a bit of pitch with only little changes in e bracket, if you breathe on the stick in DCS the bracket goes crazy , seems a little too extreme right now in the amount of lift with flaps full and the Porpoising it does with any pitch adjustment. That was a rhino in the video so it may react differently but it definitely seems like that was a lot less finiky to land.

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He's barely touching the pitch - look at how long the throw is on his stick and how little he's moving the actual base of the stick in comparison - the shorter the throw on the stick (the part that connects where your hand rests to the actual sensors) the more dramatic a small movement will be. That's why I recommend using a curve on your stick even if it is precise - it gives you that leeway to make adjustments without going crazy.

 

 

Cheers!

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I don't think barely touching pitch is a good description of what he's doing.

 

Watch the video again - watch how the HUD on the left DDI changes with the inputs he's making (and account for some of the more dramatic changes being due to power shifts in conjunction with the way the flaps affect the pitch when you change power settings that have been 'trimmed in') and you'll see what I'm saying. He's not changing the pitch of the aircraft much with the stick.

 

 

Cheers!

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