Normandy and current aircraft Discussion

You don't understand. IRL Bf109K4 came waaaaaay too late to change anything, and most units were not Bf109K4 only. K4 like any other Bf109 was transfered as a replacement or formed into some units without special managment of versions. So even in one flight there could be K4, two G6 and a G14 at the same time.

 

Up untill the end of the war most popular German fighter in the air was Bf109G6 and it's modifications. Around 9000+ total

 

Bf109K4 was built in 1944 in only around 500 units. It is not reflective of real historic situation over europe in 1944. When fighting a 109 in the air 7 out of 10 times you were fighting against Bf109G6 and 2 out of 10 with G14. The 109K4 started to be "visible" in 1945 when it's production reached around 2500 units, but the allies had already achieved air superiority by that time and had numerical advantage.

 

The counter for better 109K and 190D(or Ta152) models would be the P-47M and P-51H, but because Lufwaffe was literally dead and grinded into the ground at that point and P-47 squadrons already were mostly transitioned to P-51D and P-51H was not needed anymore. So P-51H and P-47M production was halted, because there was no need for a new fighter. 20xP-51D vs 1x109K4 is good enough to render its fighting capability usless.

 

P-47D would fight against Bf109G6, G14 and G10 at best. Of course there is CHANCE of finding a rare white crow like the K4, but it was not a every day reality. In DCS it is an every day reality.

 

There is a huge difference between versions of 109s. :book:

 

PS. We are getting a Normandy map and the game is called DCS WWII: Europe 1944. Bf109K4 arrived way after not only D-Day, but when france was already liberated and allies were at doorstep of Germany, so in any campaign over France the K4 variant is just a wild imagination/fanfic scenario.

 

PS2. One historian once said: "The D-Day was the biggest air battle of WW2... that never took place" because Luftwaffe was already weakened by real hero of 1943-44 period. The P-47 Thunderbolt.

As a WWII combat sim enthusiast, it appears to me the DCS WWII Europe project is not very well "joined up" at the moment in terms of aircraft match up for historical time line. It is one of the reasons that I am only interested in one aircraft at the moment, to keep my hand in, and am waiting for the project to prove itself in terms of enabling a historical combat flight sim experience. If the project is an eventual success, then I will purchase a lot more aircraft. But it looks as though it could be a number of years before we will get enough aircraft common to a particular time line to be properly representative of a particular air battle/scenario that took place in WWII. I am very glad to see that DCS are giving WWII a go, but I suspect it may be a long time to fruition regarding an historical and integrated battle space.

I agree with most of this quote, but not the G6 stuff. After G10 and particularly G14 came out in bigger numbers, most of the G6 were detracted to the eastern front to fight the russians. I think G14 instead of this K4 would be a better reflection of history in terms of plane model and likelihood to meet in late 44.

It's also not right, that there was no aerial battle at D-Day because of the "weakened Luftwaffe". The real reason was, that Germany didn't expect that Dday, and almost all of their (western front) planes were stationed in Germany or at the French border. A few days after Dday, once they transfered their planes nearer to the enemy, competitive aerial combat started again. But they still let most of their fighters in Germany, because they considered it more important to defend against the big bomber formations, then using their planes against the enemy ground troops. So yes, an area around western germany and belgium would have been probably the better choice

Some of the design choices are definitely questionable, but ED seems set in their path to deliver as announced.

What's done is done, and I don't see anyone doing a G-14 or an A-8 any time soon. Simply pointing out the facts over and over again isn't going to get the K-4 removed from the game.

I agree with most of this quote, but not the G6 stuff. After G10 and particularly G14 came out in bigger numbers, most of the G6 were detracted to the eastern front to fight the russians. I think G14 instead of this K4 would be a better reflection of history in terms of plane model and likelihood to meet in late 44.

It's also not right, that there was no aerial battle at D-Day because of the "weakened Luftwaffe". The real reason was, that Germany didn't expect that Dday, and almost all of their (western front) planes were stationed in Germany or at the French border. A few days after Dday, once they transfered their planes nearer to the enemy, competitive aerial combat started again. But they still let most of their fighters in Germany, because they considered it more important to defend against the big bomber formations, then using their planes against the enemy ground troops. So yes, an area around western germany and belgium would have been probably the better choice

Most units still used G6's and during D-Day landings the G14 wasn't yet introduced. It began to be transfered to units in july 1944 and never reached production capacity of the G6. Furthermore G6 was produced still in 1945. Despite already improved G14 version and K4 beeing ready for standarisation.

Therefore G6 was still the most frequently showing airplane not only on the eastern front. But I am all for G14, because it is still a beter representation of 1944 times... at least it fought over France :book:

Some of the design choices are definitely questionable, but ED seems set in their path to deliver as announced.

 

What's done is done, and I don't see anyone doing a G-14 or an A-8 any time soon. Simply pointing out the facts over and over again isn't going to get the K-4 removed from the game.

I know.:cry:

Although, there is still something that can be done. That is making new allied aircraft up to the task. Give P-47M instead of D. Give P-51D 150 ocate fuel. It is sad though, that it works that way...

The most perfect machup for the time period would be.

German:

Bf109G14

Fw190A8

Fw190D9

Allies:

P-51D20

P-47D30

Spitfire MkIXc

We were so close to perfect:cry:

The info I have is that only 76 G-6s were produced in 1945. In the same time 580 G-14s were accepted.

Production of G-14s began in July 1944 but none were accepted befor August.

G-14s were replacing G-6s on the production lines. From Aug 1944, 1483 G-6s and 3950 G-14s were produced.

The most perfect machup for the time period would be.

German:

Bf109G14

Fw190A8

Fw190D9

 

Allies:

P-51D20

P-47D30

Spitfire MkIXc

 

We were so close to perfect:cry:

yeah, fully agree.

Alternatively:

German:

Bf109K4

Ta152

Me262

Allies:

P51D 150 oct

Spitfire Mk14

Hawker Tempest/P47M

But they had to rename it then into DCS WW2 Europe1945

Dora doesn't fit the late summer '44 timeline either (Dortenmann received his "210003" September 20th, around the time the first G-10's and K-4's entered service, but especially the 1.8ata/MW50 variant we have ingame), but it was also a plane developed by ED outside the planned Europe 1944 setting and almost finished by the time the Kickstarter campaign went up.

I understand your feelings. BF 109 K4 was developed because they had the best kind of documentation needed for this aircraft. I hope everyone understand ED can not make it 100% real as it was in 1944. As someone mentioned Luftwaffe was already weaker so to make it real we will fly our multiplayer games 10 vs 1? (just an example). I am really happy we will getting P-47, spitfire MK IX, ME 262, VEAO is developing also nice aircrafts to fly. I am feeling it is simply just too hard developed every version of every fighter used in WWII when one module takes months and even years to complete...

I understand your feelings. BF 109 K4 was developed because they had the best kind of documentation needed for this aircraft. I hope everyone understand ED can not make it 100% real as it was in 1944. As someone mentioned Luftwaffe was already weaker so to make it real we will fly our multiplayer games 10 vs 1? (just an example). I am really happy we will getting P-47, spitfire MK IX, ME 262, VEAO is developing also nice aircrafts to fly. I am feeling it is simply just too hard developed every version of every fighter used in WWII when one module takes months and even years to complete...

Yep, very good point.

Just saying, but there's three concepts that don't marry in the discussion early on.

PvP "balancing"

Equality in machines in historical war

A truly open sandbox simulator

This discussion comes up time and time again because the wish is to create a historically accurate engagement of the highest realism.

Then the conversation is destroyed by saying, "well that's not equal"

As above, the aircraft is what you get, make of them what you will.

Well, you need to define the terms. To me (and I dare say most of us in the WWII re-creation / simulation community) PvP 'balance' indicates planes from the same period. What we have now is pretty well balanced, especially once the Spit and P-47 arrive on the scene. Where we have problems is contemplating the role of otherwise wonderful aircraft like the P-40 that don't have an F-4 or G2 to fly against.

That's the main rub, here... DCS has given us a WONDERFUL, absolutely captivating matchup between the P-51 and Dora, and then are throwing the Kurfurst and soon to be Spit and P-47 into the mix. We're really starting to get what looks like the premiere late '44 / early '45 combat flight sim here. This just makes us want more. :smilewink:

As someone mentioned Luftwaffe was already weaker so to make it real we will fly our multiplayer games 10 vs 1? (just an example).

I see this quoted a lot, but it was hardly true all the time, and in many instances it was the exact opposite. From Bud Anderson's "To Fly and Fight":

It seemed we were always outnumbered. We had more fighters than they did, but what mattered was how many they could put up in one area. They would concentrate in huge numbers, by the hundreds at times. They would assemble way up ahead, pick a section of the bomber formation, and then come in head-on, their guns blazing, sometimes biting the bombers below us before we knew what was happening.

The P-40F i think is sort of a tease at the war in the pacific era, plus they were being used in Africa and Italy too, so dont think of it as a historical inaccuracy but as groundwork being laid for future projects in sort from 3PD`s and ED.

Remember there are third parties that haven't announced any WW2 modules yet. It's a profitable area so i'm sure there will be announcements of other aircraft. I'd be very surprised if we don't see the planeset more filled out and 'balanced' as time goes on!

G-6 production was quickly replaced by g-14 in mid-1944... And By start of 1945, there were just a few dozen G-6s in service - about 2/3s were high alt k4, g10 and AS types, the rest g14. K4 already amounted to about 200 in Service by october.

Strcitly speaking For normandy of course k4 is too early, but so is 51D, all of these are secodn half of 1944 planes. For late 1944, planeset is mostly ok, even though most typical 109 would be g14 or g14/as.

Most units still used G6's and during D-Day landings the G14 wasn't yet introduced. It began to be transfered to units in july 1944 and never reached production capacity of the G6. Furthermore G6 was produced still in 1945. Despite already improved G14 version and K4 beeing ready for standarisation.

 

Therefore G6 was still the most frequently showing airplane not only on the eastern front. But I am all for G14, because it is still a beter representation of 1944 times... at least it fought over France :book:

Here are the production figures for 109s built in 1944-45 at MTT Regensburg; G-6s built in that factory complex way outnumbered all other subtypes built there until December 1944:

Other factories building the G-6 supplemented them and later replaced them with G-14s.

It appears that you have made The mistake of getting lost in one single detail and the fact that Regensburg kept producing G-6 (by this time, often equipped with MW-50 so in practice almost identical to G-14) while every other factory quickly changed over to other, more advanced types.

The reason behind it was probably that 109K production, which was to start in the early summer of 1944 already, was delayed in Regensburg so they did not shut down the G-6 production line just yet.

But it was thequite opposite to the situation in other Me 109 factories, as the production figures clearly show - for all practical purposed, in July 1944 G-6 production switched to G-14 and later, G-10 and K-4.

Be sure not to mix up the exception with the rule in the future! ;)

Strcitly speaking For normandy of course k4 is too early, but so is 51D, all of these are secodn half of 1944 planes. For late 1944, planeset is mostly ok, even though most typical 109 would be g14 or g14/as.

Operation Overlord ran from 6 June to 30 August 1944.

There was 4 Groups in the 8th AF that operated P-51Ds in that time period.

It appears that you have made The mistake of getting lost in one single detail and the fact that Regensburg kept producing G-6 (by this time, often equipped with MW-50 so in practice almost identical to G-14) while every other factory quickly changed over to other, more advanced types.

 

The reason behind it was probably that 109K production, which was to start in the early summer of 1944 already, was delayed in Regensburg so they did not shut down the G-6 production line just yet.

 

But it was the quite opposite to the situation in other Me 109 factories, as the production figures clearly show - for all practical purposed, in July 1944 G-6 production switched to G-14 and later, G-10 and K-4.

According to Wiki, MW50 was fitted to recon 109s and from another source 130 were built in Nov 1944.

JGs that used the K-4

Unit - date introduced to unit (1944) - number of K-4s + other 109s at month end - (end of Dec)

III./JG1 - Nil 1944

II./JG2 - Nov - 2 + 56 - (9 + 20)

III./JG3 - Nov - 9 + 58 - (8 + 16)

I./JG4 - (Dec - 2 + 26)

III./JG4 - Oct - 15 + 38 - (26 + 2)

II./JG11 - (Dec - 11 + 580

III./JG26 - Nov - 35 + 36 - (29 + 15)

I./JG27 - Oct - 57 + 1 - (14 + 1)

II./JG27 - Oct - 2 + 57 - (0 + 21)

III./JG27 - Oct - 55 + 2 - (26 + 0)

IV./JG27 - Oct - 4 + 58 - (0 + 32)

III./JG51 - Nil 1944

II./JG52 - Nil 1944

III./JG52 - Nil 1944

II./JG53 - (Dec - 5 + 37)

III./JG53 - Nil 1944

I./JG77 - (Dec - 1 + 37)

II./JG77 - Nil 1944

III./JG77 - Oct - 57 - (27)

JG list from Prien/Rodeike book Bf109F, G & K and numbers from http://www.ww2.dk/

As can be seen the number decreased from 190 in Oct to 145 in Dec, despite some 854 being produced.

Attrition seems to be the reason.

example: III./JG77 had 86 K-4s delivered to it but lost 53 due to operational and non-operational causes.

It appears that you have made The mistake of getting lost in one single detail and the fact that Regensburg kept producing G-6 (by this time, often equipped with MW-50 so in practice almost identical to G-14) while every other factory quickly changed over to other, more advanced types.

 

The reason behind it was probably that 109K production, which was to start in the early summer of 1944 already, was delayed in Regensburg so they did not shut down the G-6 production line just yet.

 

But it was thequite opposite to the situation in other Me 109 factories, as the production figures clearly show - for all practical purposed, in July 1944 G-6 production switched to G-14 and later, G-10 and K-4.

 

Be sure not to mix up the exception with the rule in the future! ;)

Be sure to be more careful and read what was actually written before making snide, condescending little comments with a little smiley at the end:

Here are the production figures for 109s built in 1944-45 at MTT Regensburg; G-6s built in that factory complex way outnumbered all other subtypes built there until December 1944:...Other factories building the G-6 supplemented them and later replaced them with G-14s.

So when other aircraft are released they shouldn't be allowed in because they were not in that theatre? again, they're laying ground work for other eras and theatres of war guys. I think regardless of what aircraft are released and when, we should be thankful that people from ED and other 3PD's have dedicated in most cases their lives to bringing us truly exquisite aircraft and the level of detail in a simulator they can produce. I dont care that I'm in a D-9 and im flying against Spit mk24 ( just a far off example). Im just happy that someone made a fully dynamic model that mimics the real thing and I can fly it. So what if they have a K-4 in 1944 against mk9 spits and 51d's, get better with your plane and it won't matter what you fly because you know your plane and you know how to use it to it's fullest potential which allows you to come out on top.

+1 :)

At the end it doesn´t matter what type is fighting what type as long as the difference is not huge.

We often had those scenarios in IL2, and found that the correct counter measure was to fly tactics which fit the situation.

If you are in inferior material make sure you have surpise on your side and lots of additional engergy. Otherwise: do not engage.

Seek your advantage and your enemies disadvantage. NEVER fly alone.

As long as you do not have to fight a pair Bf109K4 in a P40B it always will be electrifying! :pilotfly:

All attempts to create a 'balanced' scenario have a very high risk of to simply fail (mission targets cannot be achieved) or turn out to be very predictable and boring.

Right now a single plane that makes things unbalanced is K4. In 190 vs51 scenario the fw has to use better speed and roll to win against p51. And p51 needs to force low speed turn fighting. That's interesting because planes need to use their strenghts.

In p47 vs 109k4 scenario or 51 vs k4. The 109 has most advantages. It is both faster and more maneuverable and turns better and climbs better.

If we get 150 grade fuel for allied planes things can get more equal. Right now K4 is just too good.

@up the difference is that for each mission in il2 you can get different planes. Here we are stuck forever with 109 k4.