TM F16 FLCS/TQS USB Conversion question/project

So then! Since I've recently bought LOFC2.0 and only have a shitty Logitech-stick to use for both LOFC2.0 and BS, I've dusted off my old nearly-unused FLCS/TQS-set from Thrustmaster's Yonder years. Now, as many of you know, this is an old-school pure-analog stick-and-throttle set, originally designed to work with either a gamecard or a special 8-bit ISA-card directly from Thrustmaster themselves. Needless to say, this is a very bad combination with my new AMD-rig and Windows 7. So the thought struck me, yet again, to mod the old clunker into a USB-set, using Leo Bodnar's Universal 12-bit Joystick-controllers. Namely the BU0836X. At €45, it's much easier to pass the Wife-unit's inspection than a €300 TM Warthog-HOTAS, and the punisment for spending the €45 is most likely VERY much less severe as well. Even though I wouldn't mind putting a Warthog-set on my desk...

But before I order the controller, I thought I'd check in with you other Whirly/Jet-heads that are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to modding things. So here goes the question-list:

1. Has anyone actually converted an FLCS/TQS into a USB-set, or are anyone familiar with the BU0836X and know of any issues that needs to be addressed?
   
2. Can I still use the same pots and switches, or will these need to be swapped? The stick and throttle has been used less than 2 hours, so there shouldn't be a lot of wear on the current pots/switches.
   
3. Should I go for one chip in each, or use a cable between the throttle and stick? Pro's/con's with each setup?
   

I'll most likely end up getting the conversion-kit anyway since I'm curious about it, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm about as good with electronics as I am flying the KA50 (which means to say that I'm very good at messing up in horrible ways, with the occational good result much to my own and the world's general wonder).

Answer to question one: Yes.! I am doing a conversion to USB, using Loe Bodnars BU0836X right now in fact..

It's really quite staight forwards, as far as conversions go. But you will have to remove all the electronics, resolder new wires to all switches and replace the connectors that run between the Stick and the Throttle with new ones.

question 2: I tend to favour hall effect sensors before pots. Becuase they are much more precise, and don't suffer from the old "spiking ghost" after some use. But the original pots are quite good. So if you don't want to go through with all the stress of hall effect conversion just keep the pots.

On the throttle there's a thumb microstick that I chose to replace with an old coolie-hat. But you can set the original microstick up as two axis if you want. This will require that you figure out the pinout of the microstick wiring though. Shouldn't be a big issue...

Question 3: One in each is time saving because you can skip the wire and connector replacement between them, But it's also a waste of BU0836X cards. your call..

My experience is that both the stick "box" and the throttle "box" are just a little small for the BU0836X cards. you can just bearly fit the card inside with a little convinsing.. Actually the BU0836 card would be a better fit. But then you will have to REALLY think through the wiring to get the right matrix..

I went with one BU0836X placed inside the throttle, a cable between the trottle and stick, and two more connectors for external rudder pedals and a collective stick.

I'll post some pics when I finish it later today..

Excellent! Might pick up the hall-sensors needed as well just in case. As far as I know, I'll need two for the stick axis, and two for the throttle (one for the throttle-axis and one for the antenna elevation-wheel).

Think I'll stick with a single-chip setup. Will need to take the stick/throttle apart when I get home from work to take a look on the pins, although making the thumbstick into a four-way hat might not be a bad idea either. Will bear investigation. Got any places here in Norway that's good for parts?

Not too fond of mucking too much around with the pin-outs, so I'll most go for the 836X.

What did you use for the external connectors?

Hey Guys make sure you post screenshots of your progress as I'm in the process of doing the same for a Suncom Hotas. My question is what sort of magnets do you use with the Hall effect sensors?

Do some planning before you order any hardware. The BU0836X is simpler but it's bigger and more expensive. In addition there will be a large number of wires going between boxes using a single BU0836X. Every axis is 3 wires plus one wire per button and switch position with an additional ground wire. For my collective and throttle I ended up with 16 wires between collective and cyclic. This means a large connector between boxes.

Also keep in mind old analog hat switches are sometimes analog meaning they got read like an axis. You might have to do some doctoring on the switch to read it as digital buttons the the bonder boards expect.

@Subs17: Will do! As soon as I start working on mine, there will be pics of the process.

@Gadroc: Good point there. I popped the bottoms off both the stick and the trottle, and yes, there will be an insane amount of wires coming from the stick, and internally in the throttle. A thought that struck me and that I'll look closer at is using an old Printer-connector (Centronix) between the stick and the throttle, and an Ultra320 SCSI flat ribboncable for the insides of both sticks. The former should give me around 50 individual strands to work with, and then latter should give me about 80. Of course, I could just pick up a premade ribbon, but I'm also thinking about using the things I have available.

The buttons is a good point, though. Will have to test each one to see if they even register on the 836X before installing them in the stick/throttle.

Have taken some images from how the set looks inside now, and will have to study them before actually making up my mind on how to proceed. Depending on how large the 836X actually is, it should fit in the front of the main Throttle-axis. We'll see, though :D

FYI someone has converted a Suncom to USB heres a link to a thread on how he did it. He used the same type of USB controller.

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=27496&st=20

This guy painted his Hotas before rewiring it.

I did some conversions of old (and good) gameport HOTAS to USB, with BU0836 (not X).

CH F16 Combatstick + CH PRO Throttle, using original 100k pots.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=81&Number=2334380&Searchpage=1&Main=251103&Words=fenix&topic=0&Search=true#Post2334380

Suncom F-15 Talon stick + Sumcon SFS, using HALL Sensor (Alegro A1321).

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2706511/Suncom_F15_BU0836_HALL_Sensor.html#Post2706511

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2904142/Suncom_SFS.html#Post2904142

Two squad mates convert yours Thrustmaster F-22FLCS + TQS with BU0836 (not X), one made this scheme for easy wiring:

To replace "eraserhead" (pressure device) in TQS use a 4 way HAT (4 buttons) borrowed from another stick

or buy some:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=42516&highlight=Sokol1_br

Or use one PS2 style mini-stick (2 axis plus 1 button) - like in Cougar TQS.

http://yhst-27389313707334.stores.yahoo.net/thumbjoystick.html

Sokol1

Hi, I have exactily the same problem, specially the one about to pass the Wife-unit's inspection. Have you been able to sucessfully transform your FLCS/TQS into USB?

Thanks

FLCS means F-16 FLCS? Tm version previous than F22PRO:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKa6kK8YCbkXhpU9HEer4kXcM4r1I5BNnX_jiX13AQZBnlmV_v

If yes, is the same thing, you can use this scheme:

http://img441.imageshack.us/i/tqsr.jpg/

These USB conversion are easy - the only pre requirement is know how to make solders. Take some time and lot of patience. :)

Sokol1

Yes that's the joystick I have F-16 FLCS and TQS. But I'm afraid that is too tricky for me ........................ :-(

Skål

FLCS means F-16 FLCS? Tm version previous than F22PRO:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKa6kK8YCbkXhpU9HEer4kXcM4r1I5BNnX_jiX13AQZBnlmV_v

 

If yes, is the same thing, you can use this scheme:

 

http://img441.imageshack.us/i/tqsr.jpg/

 

These USB conversion are easy - the only pre requirement is know how to make solders. Take some time and lot of patience. :)

 

Sokol1

Interesting i may need one if the gameport to usb i bought fails for the TM RCS.

FLCS means F-16 FLCS? Tm version previous than F22PRO:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKa6kK8YCbkXhpU9HEer4kXcM4r1I5BNnX_jiX13AQZBnlmV_v

 

If yes, is the same thing, you can use this scheme:

 

http://img441.imageshack.us/i/tqsr.jpg/

 

These USB conversion are easy - the only pre requirement is know how to make solders. Take some time and lot of patience. :)

 

Sokol1

Sokol, can you re-upload your chematics please? The links are dead :(

This scheme was done for BU0836 6x6 matrix.

What USB controller you plan use?

With MMjoy2 don't need re-wire the grip, as this use Shift Register CD4021.

Hi Sokol,

thanks for the repost.

My setup is F22Pro + TQS which I forgot, since I was flying IL2 for a long time and my Saitek Aviator was quite good for this. Now that I am back into DCS and jets I would like to give a new life to these old but great controllers, especially since new ones cost 300+EUR :)

I was going to use Leo Bodnar's board, but now I see I need to deal with the shift registers in the F22PRO and I don't think it would be very elegant to pass all those wires through the stick into the base...

I see your post about MMjoy2 and it looks really interesting. If I understood correctly, you can directly solder the 5 wires from F pro to the board? What should I do with the TQS? How would you recommend I connect it?

Yes, with the MMjoy2 you don't need make change in the wires in grip, the communication with MMjoy2 is though this 5 wires cable down the tube.

But don't sold the wires in the board connector - risk kill then - mak connector with this 2.54 pitch bar:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-40Pins-1x40-PCB-Single-Row-Female-Socket-Header-Connector-Kit-Strip-2-54mm-/401045209090?hash=item5d60284002:g:m9YAAOSwT6pVi3IO

Is the same of the connectors that come with BU0836.

In TQS you need make changes, the "eraserhead" thing in thumb can't be used - is a pressure device with proper protocol - replace with PS2 like mini-stick, or a 4/8 way HAT. *

Will be need add diodes in HATS/buttons.

* Can be use as HAT:

http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/328885/ALPS/RKJXL.html

Can you connect the TQS eraserhead as a multiaxis analog input then?

Dont know if in original circuit was used as resistance or voltage variation, the thing has 5 wires - a "dissected" one (by me, hate this thing): :mad:

As analog axis will be used 4:

+5V

Gnd

X axis

Y axis

Maybe as this device was make primarily for laptop, this 5th wire is for "click"... In TQS the click is conventional switch button wired in separate.

Try follow the wires in TQS circuit to identify +5V, GND and if possible axis X, Y.

Hi Sokol,

So, I got my arduino micro and will use it with MMjoy2 to connect both F22PRO and TQS (on the same controller which will be inside TQS).

But I have a very basic question for you: how do I connect TQS buttons?

All buttons on the TQS have 1 common wire and 1 wire per button. Can I connect them in a 10x1 matrix then?

And what is this common wire originally? Is it +5V or is it GND?

Thx!

I advise you do in the inverse way: Fit MMJoy2 inside joystick base, to use short wires for X,Y axis, more important than throttle axis. ;)

All buttons on the TQS have 1 common wire and 1 wire per button. Can I connect them in a 10x1 matrix then?

And what is this common wire originally? Is it +5V or is it GND?

TQS handle buttons need be wired in Diode Matrix, in matrix is not used +5v and GND but "Lines/Rows and Columns".

So for TQS handle you have to make this type of connections:

For Axis (Antenna, Range): +5V and GnD wires - can be shared with both axis, individual wire for each axis input. Don't mix this wires with buttons connections.

For buttons: "N" Rows and "N" columns (in Cougar-TQS is 3 Rows x 4 Columns), so:

"Can I connect them in a 10x1 matrix then? "

Yes, you can reuse the actual wiring in 10x 1 matrix for buttons. :thumbup:

BTW - About the "Erasehead" 5 wires connection. In other "laptop mouse" the connections is called:

S - FSR South

W - FSR West

C - FSR Common

N - FSR North

E - FSR East

See in this documentation: http://www.interlinkelectronics.com/integration_guides/MicroJoystick_IG.zip

I don't think this kind of device will work with MMJoy2 - but seems use Serial Protocol... better ask this for Mega_MOZG in SimHQ MMJoy2 topic.

Hi Sokol,

Thanks for the file link, I looked at it but it doesn't clarify anything for me. It seems however that the common wire of the eraserhead is on the side, where the red wire is in the TQS.

So I tried to connect this to +5V, and then I connected 2 of the other grey ones to an analog input (as signal and ground)... So, yeah, it gives a response as an analog device, but It is not clear exactly how.

What it does it gives positive voltage for two of the four directions, one direction gives negative voltage and one direction doesn't react at all.

If I change the connected wires, this response doesn't change! I even connected two pairs of wires to two different analog inputs but the voltage from both is exactly the same and changes in the same way. I'll try to look into it some more but I am sure it can work as an analog device. Just need to figure out the links between different zones.

Oh, btw, is the 10-bit resolution of Arduino's ADC enough for the stick axes? What's your personal experience?

EDIT:

So, just to mention, the output voltage from the stick is about 2.3V if the stick is in neutral. This changes by about +-0.1 to 0.2V depending on which zone you touch (except one zone which doesn't change at all). Looking at your photo, it really looks that the middle wire is common to all 4 zones, and that afterwards you have a line output from each zone. However, If I bring +5V to this line, every other input is saturated at 5V. In the microstick integration file, they put the common line to a -Vref pin. Maybe I am supposed to put a negative voltage to the common line, or something like 3.3V since it seems the transducers are saturated at 5V.

But this "eraserhead" is not analog device (a axis, working with voltage divider), they work with Serial Protocol - and require a additional circuit with PIC mc - see in Interlinks PDF, page 23.

The linked documentation is just for show this.

If (MMJoy2) controller firmware don't handle this, you don't have practical use for him.

Why I suggest ask Mega_MOZG (firmware author).

I still think that better is "erase" this device. :D

And use a micro-stick or HAT in place.

10 bits (1024 steep) is OK - although some "dogfighter" users say that see difference in plane handling if increase for 12 (4096) in X,Y axis. Above this you need be a "Alien" to notice. :)

If you use TLE5011 magnetic resistor sensor for axis, will be used their internal ADC (12 or 14 bits I think).

I got my F22Pro up and running today with the Arduino Micro and MMJoy2!

Phenomenal stuff!

Now only TQS left to attach! :)

Thanks Sokol for your help! +1 rep for you!

Very nice! I may tackle that next after I figure out my swtichbox project.

I got my F22Pro up and running today with the Arduino Micro and MMJoy2!

Phenomenal stuff!

 

Now only TQS left to attach! :)

 

Thanks Sokol for your help! +1 rep for you!

did you ever get the TQS working? did my F22 a while back (very easy with shift registers) & converted an SFS throttle (matrix, was a nightmare)

so is the TQS a 10x1 matrix? so shouldn't need to re-wire & solder diodes? or by default is it using a shift register?