Comments and questions on module

Hello,

I took the EB for a ride in instrument conditions and noticed a few things:

1. the HSI lacks a few marks, 90° left and right and 180 at the bottom -

note that the 90° right mark is also the center indication fir the glideslope

2. the baro knob turns very slow, can the speed be increased?

3. the speed knob has a resulution of 2-3 kts, can this be reduced to 1 kts?

4. is there a table of applicable thrust settings? I did not find a N1 setting

for climb&cruise power

5. The ILS is behaving weird. Usually if I turn from upwind to downwind at

3000 ft, the ILS cone should appear around 7 nm away from the airport.

I did not notice this, I could not get the cone.

When turning final after a loong (20nm) downwind, the ILS indications appear

at about 12.5nm. Beyond that, there is no signal.

6. The localizer got lost for some reason at 4.8nm, see the screenshot.

7. When standing on the runway with engines running, after about 20 mins

I increased the throttle and the engine quit. This is reproduceable, so I

wonder whats going on? I attached the mission file and video - you

can see this at the very end.

Thank you.

c101 ils issues.trk

c101 eng fail.trk

C-101 EB IFR takeoff.miz

I see strange behavior too with navigation, but I don't know if it's the module or my lack of understanding. I'm reading the manual on these issues but I see no mention.

I took the EB for a ride in instrument conditions and noticed a few things:

Unfortunately your track did not play back correctly, in my replay you flew west and appeared to fly off course and crash.

Looking at the mission, there is a 10 knot ground wind towards 90°T and RWY 30 is the active runway.

Adding an air spawn to the same mission, I lined up on RWY 30 (289°M) using the VOR (117.1 Mhz), switched to ILS (109.3 MHz) and landed successfully.

5. The ILS is behaving weird. Usually if I turn from upwind to downwind at

3000 ft, the ILS cone should appear around 7 nm away from the airport.

 

I did not notice this, I could not get the cone.

You may be above the 3° glide slope = 7 Nm * 300 ft/Nm = 2,100 ft

When turning final after a long (20nm) downwind, the ILS indications appear

at about 12.5nm. Beyond that, there is no signal.

Perhaps due to signal strength ?

7. When standing on the runway with engines running, after about 20 mins

I increased the throttle and the engine quit. This is reproduceable, so I

wonder whats going on? I attached the mission file and video - you

can see this at the very end.

Likely due to engine icing due to the rain, etc., turning on the engine anti-ice stops the problem.

Tested Open Beta 2.5.6.47404

Hi Ramsay,

your right about the wind. The mission editors windvector pointing towards

the right looked to me like there would be some headwind. :)

Concerning the ILS cone, the DCS one seems to be pretty short an narrow.

Can anyone confirm this? I've checked with several simulators, flying a

downwind into the cone makes the glideslope appear at around 7 nm, so I

can turn to base or final at around 10nm. Cannot do this with the C101,

as I dont even get the signal. I remember having some ILS trouble with

the Mirage too.

As for the engine quitting, it's 10 degrees celsius so icing shouldn't be an issue.

As for the engine quitting, it's 10 degrees celsius so icing shouldn't be an issue.

The OAT at Vody is 8°C and ice accretion is modelled when OAT is below 10ºC with rain, etc.

We have ice accretion implemented in our simulation. This will happen when the a/c is exposed to icing conditions (temperatures, OAT or TAT during flight, lower than 10 ºC and present moisture).

 

If you are flying for long time at a TAT a bit lower than 10 ºC without anti-ice on, ice will accumulate in the engine fan blades, which can cause an engine stall or flameout. You'll have to be careful with the throttle avoiding abrupt power changes, if you are careful you'll be able to continue the flight. If you switch on the engine anti-ice switch, ice will disappear after a while.

 

At very low temperatures, ice will accumulate rapidly and the icing symptoms will appear in the engine in a few minutes.

 

Always, when under icing conditions, you should switch on engine anti-ice and ignition continuous.

You should note this general FAA comment about ice formation.

The ... compressor in a jet engine forms a partial vacuum in the intake. Adiabatic expansion in the partial vacuum cools the air. Ice forms when the temperature drops below freezing and sufficient moisture is present for sublimation....Induction icing potential varies greatly among different aircraft and occurs under a wide range of meteorological conditions. It is primarily an engineering and operating problem rather than meteorological.

Hello,

 

 

I took the EB for a ride in instrument conditions and noticed a few things:

 

 

1. the HSI lacks a few marks, 90° left and right and 180 at the bottom -

note that the 90° right mark is also the center indication fir the glideslope

We are adding them, thank you.

2. the baro knob turns very slow, can the speed be increased?

I don't see such issue, both using clickable cockpit and keyboard or joystick buttons works OK. I don't see a need to increase the speed, any intermediate altitude or pressure can be set. Maybe depends on the precision of the keyboard you use. Anyway I'll keep an eye on it and see if some further tune can be done.

3. the speed knob has a resulution of 2-3 kts, can this be reduced to 1 kts?

Same as above.

4. is there a table of applicable thrust settings? I did not find a N1 setting

for climb&cruise power

No, there isn't. You can download a C-101 flight manual from internet. Google "C-101 manual de vuelo". You have performance tables in it. Take into account that it is in Spanish and that it is an old version of the manual, so some data is outdated. For example, gliding performance tables are not correct.

The climb in the C-101 is performed with MCT, Maximum Continuous Thrust (ITT = 832ºC) or with Maximum Cruise Thrust (ITT = 795ºC). Warning: never exceed an ITT of 832ºC for more than 5 minutes.

5. The ILS is behaving weird. Usually if I turn from upwind to downwind at

3000 ft, the ILS cone should appear around 7 nm away from the airport.

 

I did not notice this, I could not get the cone.

When turning final after a loong (20nm) downwind, the ILS indications appear

at about 12.5nm. Beyond that, there is no signal.

I made a test at Batumi to see if some bug appeared lately, and I didn't see any issues with ILS coverage. I had LOC (Localizer) signal at 45º offset from QFU (runway magnetic heading, that is, runway centerline extension). I had GS (Glide Slope) signal at 17º offset from QFU. I also got GS signal 14 NM away from the airfield and got LOC signal 63 NM away. It could be a loss of coverage or an issue in a specific airport, in that last case it is a DCS issue and there's nothing we can do as a 3rd party, since it's not a bug in our module.

6. The localizer got lost for some reason at 4.8nm, see the screenshot.

I flew that approach to MinVody and indeed there is an issue with that ILS beam. The LOC signal is lost at around 3 NM away from threshold and GS signal is lost if you are a bit below the GS, though it is not lost if you are correctly in the slope. Both signals are lost for a brief moment. You should report this to ED, as it's obviously an issue with the map or DCS navaids, there's nothing we can do about it, since it's not an issue in our module. In fact, I tested it in A-10C and I could see the same behaviour.

7. When standing on the runway with engines running, after about 20 mins

I increased the throttle and the engine quit. This is reproduceable, so I

wonder whats going on? I attached the mission file and video - you

can see this at the very end.

Since MinVody airport is at 1000ft, the OAT is aprox. 8ºC. You need to use engine anti-ice, and pitot heat as well, of course, since it's mandatory for all flights, but in this specific case, you could very likely have issues with air data instruments if you don't use pitot heat, due to ice accretion.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Hi Roberto,

thanks for taking care.

As for the baro knob, I am using the mousewheel. It takes 10 clicks to take the pressure from 1013 to 1014 mb, which is quite a lot. Keyboard bindings work fine, but I think increasing the speed by 5 (2 clicks per mb) would add to immersion.

As for the speed, if possible a finer resolution (with the mouse and keyboard) would help. The steps at around 250 kts are 3-4 kts, so setting e.g. 252 kts is not feasible.

Thanks on the thrust settings. I didn't realize the ITT is the limiting factor.

Concerning the ILS, I'll do some more tests and consider reporting to ED.

I don't agree on ice accretion while standing on the ground. I learned in unfavorable conditions, icing could start in flight below 15°C. However I don't see why my pitot tube should get plugged just by standing on the runway at 8°C? I don't know about the engine, though.

I found two pics of the cockpit:

I noticed some differences in the ADI when being cold&dark:

-The right pointer for the FD or glideslope is centered in the simulation, while to me it looks like it is coupled to the vertical deviation indicator of the FD. So in the sim it's in the middle, while on the lower photo it's on top. Same with the localizer pointer.

- the 3 localizer marks are much taller on the photo.

- Concerning the red-white dashed indicator, on the photo it's down at the very bottom, in the sim it's at -10° pitch.

The flaps and airbrake indicator are black in the sim and white on the photos.

The gear indicator is red on the photo, and black in the sim.

One more question on the cockpit textures: I think they look quite used, like someone tried to clean his hands using the panel and after that used some sand-paper to file off paint? :) I'm am thinking about reworking this myself, since I think avionics are delicate instruments that should be handled with care. Is this feasible to do with Photoshop?

Thanks,

Olli

Hi Roberto,

 

 

One more question on the cockpit textures: I think they look quite used, like someone tried to clean his hands using the panel and after that used some sand-paper to file off paint? :) I'm am thinking about reworking this myself, since I think avionics are delicate instruments that should be handled with care. Is this feasible to do with Photoshop?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Olli

I have to say that the cockpit scratches are quite heavy, maybe make 2 versions of the cockpit, one with scratches and another without?

Roberto, did you have time to check my above post? I found some more things, I just want to be sure you are taking notice.

When being over Georgia, I set Tacan to 44X and got a DME. When setting the VOR/TAC switch to VOR, the DME is still displayed. Why is this?

What is the function of the Navigation Control Transfer Button?

One other thing I dont understand is the localizer deviation pointer in the ADI. When is it active? What does it do? Is it connected to the flight computer? The below screenshot shows a "fly right into the 290 radial" on the HSI, while the localizer pointer is active too - telling me to turn left.

Also, there is a displaced part of texture on the bottom left of the HSI, close to 30°.

One more thing.. when being on the ground and ejecting, I can still move the control surfaces. Havent tried in flight.

Thank you,

Olli

Hi Roberto,

 

 

thanks for taking care.

As for the baro knob, I am using the mousewheel. It takes 10 clicks to take the pressure from 1013 to 1014 mb, which is quite a lot. Keyboard bindings work fine, but I think increasing the speed by 5 (2 clicks per mb) would add to immersion.

As for the speed, if possible a finer resolution (with the mouse and keyboard) would help. The steps at around 250 kts are 3-4 kts, so setting e.g. 252 kts is not feasible.

I don't see any issues setting baro reference or speed bug. That's rather subjective. Do you know that you can also make left mouse click and slide the mouse?

Thanks on the thrust settings. I didn't realize the ITT is the limiting factor.

You're welcome.

Concerning the ILS, I'll do some more tests and consider reporting to ED.

Roger

I don't agree on ice accretion while standing on the ground. I learned in unfavorable conditions, icing could start in flight below 15°C. However I don't see why my pitot tube should get plugged just by standing on the runway at 8°C? I don't know about the engine, though.

I never said you would get pitot icing on the ground and at 8ºC, but you can expect to get it during the flight in those conditions. Regarding engine, yes, it's possible to get icing while on the ground at low temperatures and with moisture present.

I found two pics of the cockpit:

 

 

 

 

 

I noticed some differences in the ADI when being cold&dark:

 

-The right pointer for the FD or glideslope is centered in the simulation, while to me it looks like it is coupled to the vertical deviation indicator of the FD. So in the sim it's in the middle, while on the lower photo it's on top. Same with the localizer pointer.

 

 

- the 3 localizer marks are much taller on the photo.

 

 

- Concerning the red-white dashed indicator, on the photo it's down at the very bottom, in the sim it's at -10° pitch.

 

 

 

 

The flaps and airbrake indicator are black in the sim and white on the photos.

 

 

The gear indicator is red on the photo, and black in the sim.

All that depends on the aircraft version.

Regarding gear indication, I don't see why you say it's black in the sim. Indication is red.

One more question on the cockpit textures: I think they look quite used, like someone tried to clean his hands using the panel and after that used some sand-paper to file off paint? :) I'm am thinking about reworking this myself, since I think avionics are delicate instruments that should be handled with care. Is this feasible to do with Photoshop?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Olli

All cockpit textures will be changed in a near update.

Roberto, did you have time to check my above post? I found some more things, I just want to be sure you are taking notice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When being over Georgia, I set Tacan to 44X and got a DME. When setting the VOR/TAC switch to VOR, the DME is still displayed. Why is this?

 

 

 

 

What is the function of the Navigation Control Transfer Button?

It's how it works. When changing from VOR to TACAN you change the source for the presentation in the HSI, but distance window keeps showing distance to the station set in the TACAN equipment.

One other thing I dont understand is the localizer deviation pointer in the ADI. When is it active? What does it do? Is it connected to the flight computer? The below screenshot shows a "fly right into the 290 radial" on the HSI, while the localizer pointer is active too - telling me to turn left.

You have to set the inbound course, not the outbound course if you are flying inbound, otherwise you will get opposite indication.

Also, there is a displaced part of texture on the bottom left of the HSI, close to 30°.

That is the cross and dot indication window. The model will look better in next update.

One more thing.. when being on the ground and ejecting, I can still move the control surfaces. Havent tried in flight.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Olli

That is known. Txs.

It's how it works. When changing from VOR to TACAN you change the source for the presentation in the HSI, but distance window keeps showing distance to the station set in the TACAN equipment.

So the distance indicator is only for the TACAN, ok.

You have to set the inbound course, not the outbound course if you are flying inbound, otherwise you will get opposite indication.

I am a bit embarrassed here. Of course, backcourse. More groundschool for me.

Still, why is the localizer needle moving? It's only for localizers, is it?

Still, why is the localizer needle moving? It's only for localizers, is it?

Okay, it's a bit hard to understand its features with the spanish handbook. :)

I checked Google translator on the localizer needle:

the index is located to the right of the central reference when the plane is to the left of the beam. The instrument incorporates a relay to reverse the polarity of the deviation signal when the REV mode is selected on the flight director controller computer.

So as far as I understand, depressing the REV button should reverse the localizer needle indication? If so, pressing the button in the EB (havent checked the CC) should do it, but nothing happens.

What Spanish handbook do you mean?

The REV mode is meant to be used when flying a Back Course Approach.

The signal to the Flight Director is reversed so that it provides correct guidance indications to follow the localizer. Otherwise, when flying a back course approach, as the airplane is flying in the opposite direction as the normal front ILS course, the guidance would be in the wrong direction (i.e. fly left when is should depict fly right).

BTW, when flying a BC Approach in the C-101 you have to set the same course in the HSI as in the front ILS. Let's say you want to fly a BC in Batumi to RWY 31, you would set 110.3 MHz, Course 119 and press REV in order to get FD guidance. Or just fly a raw data approach following LOC deviation indications in the HSI.

You can see some info about BC approaches in this link, or just google for back course approach:

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/systems/how-to-fly-a-localizer-back-course-approach/#:~:text=When%20you%20fly%20a%20localizer,with%20a%20few%20key%20differences.

Thanks for the backcourse comments. I have to catch up with IFR training, thats one reason why I got the C101.

The attachment is from the "C-101 manual de vuelo", page 57 of the PDF.

Also, I wonder if the 3 lights AOA indexer in the CC is shown correctly? I did not find a condition where it's turned off. I think it should turn off during flight, e.g. when the gear is raised.

Edit: I checked with other aircraft. Seems to be on during flight on most aircraft. I wonder if that's not rather a distraction than a help.

Flight Director Roll command bar

Speaking of flight directors:

In the CC model, the flight director roll bar is not behaving correctly while tracking the localizer. The command bar does not track the localizer, at least not completely, and seems to be oversensitive to roll changes, rather than localizer deviations.

The pitch bar seems to be ok though.

Setting the vis down to 1200 feet, I have to go raw data if I want to successfully complete the approach to land, as the roll bar would keep me consistently off the centreline.

The C-101CC seems to be the only module where you can fairly realistically replicate IFR flying to the civil airports in DCS. The L-29 Albatross flight director works well, but can only use Russian ILS.

Speaking of flight directors:

 

 

In the CC model, the flight director roll bar is not behaving correctly while tracking the localizer. The command bar does not track the localizer, at least not completely, and seems to be oversensitive to roll changes, rather than localizer deviations.

 

 

The pitch bar seems to be ok though.

 

 

 

Setting the vis down to 1200 feet, I have to go raw data if I want to successfully complete the approach to land, as the roll bar would keep me consistently off the centreline.

 

 

 

The C-101CC seems to be the only module where you can fairly realistically replicate IFR flying to the civil airports in DCS. The L-29 Albatross flight director works well, but can only use Russian ILS.

I've flown a CAT III approach (with 200 m of visibility) in the C-101EB and C-101CC to test this, landing without issues, though vertical bar is a bit too sensitive. If you try to persuit the bar you end up overrreacting. We have changed sensitivity to make it behave similar to the C-101EB. Check it in next update.

I've flown a CAT III approach (with 200 m of visibility) in the C-101EB and C-101CC to test this, landing without issues, though vertical bar is a bit too sensitive. If you try to persuit the bar you end up overrreacting. We have changed sensitivity to make it behave similar to the C-101EB. Check it in next update.

Wondering what settings you were using:

2.5.6 open beta or stable version?

fog visibility value?

fog density?

fog thickness?

cloud base?

cloud thickness?

cloud density?

day or night?

which airport? (seems like Tbilisi 31L is the only one with decent approach lights)

I want to replicate.

Thanks.

Our internal version, mostly equivalent to Open Beta, except that cockpit textures are correct, specially lighting (i.e. engine instruments digits lighting, etc). But that shouldn't make a difference to follow the FD bars, keep speed and read altitude, HSI and ADI.

I used the attached mission, but, really, you don't need any specific mission, just put your head down looking inside the cockpit and look outside when you are at 200ft above airport altitude for example. That would be minimums for CAT I, which is what you can do with this airplane. You can also get into the rear cockpit with IFR hood on, and jump to front cockpit when you get to minimums.

Tips:

Use active pause at mission start to set up your cockpit.

Make use of DME Hold function, open the kneeboard to look for TACAN/DME paired frequencies. Set 108.8 MHz and set DME Hold switch in DME HOLD. Set ILS 110.3 MHz with course 122º (128º - 6ºE).

Airport elevation: 1574 ft.

ILS Minvody.miz

Any comment on the function of REV-button?

While the handbook starts with mentioning the XT computer at that time, I think I could explain more on the function of the flight computer. Hard to find any information in english.

I did a little bit of testing and it seems that the flight director roll commands do not handle crosswinds very well.

With a crosswind, when conducting a Localizer or ILS instrument approach, centering the FD roll bar results in a localizer needle consistently off centre. To make it center the localizer, it is necessary to adjust the localizer inbound course on the CDI.

In real life, when doing an ILS approach, the Localizer inbound course set in the CDI is always the published value on the approach plate. For the ILS 31L in Tbilisi, the inbound course is 312 degrees (2010). With an incorrect inbound course in zero crosswind, the FD command logic would assume that it is compensating for a crosswind, but would still center the CDI localizer needle.

Any comment on the function of REV-button?

The English manual states (page 79):

[b]REV Mode[/b]
The reverse localizer mode is selected by pressing the REV push-button.
It allows to fly a back course approach and it can be used with both pitch
modes, PAT and ALT.

I have tried the REV when being backcourse, but it did not work as described.