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A must see video of dogfighting in the Tomcat


GVO

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Oh, it's Grim Reapers! They will tear it to pieces. Take cover!

 

(Thanks. I'll watch in the evening.:D)

 

Haha yeah I know what you mean, but for anyone that don't want to see it because it's them, it's not a guy from Grim Reapers going through the tips for the F-14 :)

 

He has some very interesting thoughts on how to use the wingposition and flaps during a fight.

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Not gonna say what he's doing doesn't work absolutely phenomenally in DCS, he's clearly a very skilled pilot.

 

He's also absolutely breaking that jet though... overstressing flaps and slats, overpulling almost every high speed turn...

 

No doubt its very effective, but hardly an elegant way of fighting.

Each his own I guess.

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Not gonna say what he's doing doesn't work absolutely phenomenally in DCS, he's clearly a very skilled pilot.

 

He's also absolutely breaking that jet though... overstressing flaps and slats, overpulling almost every high speed turn...

 

No doubt its very effective, but hardly an elegant way of fighting.

Each his own I guess.

 

what does elegance have to do with a knife fight?

i do the wingsweep and flaps a little bit but nowhere near as much as him, i dont wanna break the flaps lol

7700k @5ghz, 32gb 3200mhz ram, 2080ti, nvme drives, valve index vr

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Not gonna say what he's doing doesn't work absolutely phenomenally in DCS, he's clearly a very skilled pilot.

 

He's also absolutely breaking that jet though... overstressing flaps and slats, overpulling almost every high speed turn...

 

No doubt its very effective, but hardly an elegant way of fighting.

Each his own I guess.

 

Ok so I was not the only one thinking that the main tactical advice could be condensed into „throw NATOPS out of the window „

 

 

Not wanting to dimish his skills , nice flying and general coaching.

 

 

But I wondered why this way of fighting didn‘t cause more damage to ownship.I mean he seemed to be putting out flaps somewhat regularly between 300 and 350kts and the reduce speed warning light goes on already at what , 225kts? hmmm.

 

No doubt it gives him massive turn rates, but I think in reality the Flaps would get stuck or asymmetries really quick given both the speeds and the g-loads under which they where deployed.

 

 

@eatthis

 

Elegance may have nothing to do with this, but if you break the jet in a knife fight you‘ve lost as well. Just because it worked here,doesn‘t mean its a realistic way of fighting.

But thats another can of worms, with the Hornet guys exploiting the Paddleswitch and so on..

 

Guess it comes down to personal preference,do I want to fight in a way that’s somewhat unrealistic but maximizes efficiency in DCS or do I want to simulate somewhat realistic maneuvering but accept performance disadvantage in regards to people taking the former approach.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Snappy


Edited by Snappy
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Ok so I was not the only one thinking that the main tactic advice could be condensed into „throw NATOPS out of the window „

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's what DCS stands for in some obscure language nobody speaks. Maybe it's Etruscan.

 

 

One thing I've noticed is "everyone" (in quotes, because obviously there are exceptions) flies like their aircraft is expendable, and they'll pull a brand new one out of storage on their next hop. It is, after all, a game, and that's exactly what happens. Not sure if bending an aircraft is even modeled. I have come back from -18 sorties and she doesn't fly right, but that might be me.

 

 

If you want NATOPS there needs to be a setting where you only get one aircraft, and if you break it you don't get another. For the purists that could be a worthwhile option; you have to start a new pilot to get a new airplane, air frame damage is saved for time you load the game.

 

 

 

Feature request in the making.

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Sure, as I wrote you can play this in different ways and why not, its still only a game after all, despite the somewhat prominent simulation tag in etruscan language.You paid with your money for it, so whatever floats your boat.

 

Whether airframe bending is modelled, can‘t say.Don‘t think so.Maybe with the new damage model it will be introduced.That should make things interesting..

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Snappy

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Please take the educational value of exploits taught in this video with a grain of salt.



 

Undersweeping wings without penalty is possible only due to a damage model that is still WIP. This will most likely get adressed in the next patch (after the coming one), and will add huge penalties in drag and possible permanent damage of flight surfaces. Also the flaps being deployed above 250 kts is still being tweaked on - and while they were used irl and indeed add a significant boost below 250kts they should not be used above that speed at all.

 

While I do not intend to point fingers with my comment, it was always a bit our fear that DCS-isms in general (dumping fuel in BFM) or us still working on the damage model (wings underswept at high speeds, flaps above 250kts) could lead to misconceptions or wrong perceptions of the FM as is often the case in this video and thus teach a somewhat "wrong" way to fly the Tomcat. That is of course not the player's fault, but ours. Learning to master her ins and outs especially in turns using rudders to prevent roll reversal, keeping her stable and being able to "read the speed off the airframe", holding speed at certain Gs (and not always at 9), as well as knowing when to slow and when to use the flaps (shortly in an emergency or not at all) will stand the proof of time as the damage model will continue to get more complex in such cases, as much as DCS allows. It is entirely possible to dominate with it, without using such game related exploits. Again, the blame here is entirely on us, our apologies for that.

 

(Note: this is a general remark/advice free of judgement and not meant to spark a discussion about the content creator. It is up to the player ofc if he wants to use exploits or not. It is our job to prevent them.)


Edited by IronMike

Heatblur Simulations

 

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What I thought was interesting, was to always keep an eye on your wingsweep and act accordingly and how you can manipulate it (with speed and angle). It should be obvious but never thought about it when dogfighting.

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Yeah for guns only, I'd just hit the burners and go up into outer space, the little snake can't follow you. He's only got one F-110. ;) then fall back down on him and pounce! All the Gs in the world won't help him when your going downhill on him.

 

No need to try and beat the F-16 at it's own game. No need to brake the flaps, no need to over G the air-frame.

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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Generally speaking, the CADC program will always give you the best wingsweep for your current speed. There's very little reason to ever mess with manual sweep as the gains are either negligible (manual back for acceleration) or potentially harmful for the aircraft (manual forward at high speed to increase instant turnrate).

 

The instruments you want to be watching is your AoA indicator and airspeed.

Proper throttle management and BFM skills will go far further than any gimmicks with flaps or wing sweep. Everything seen in the video can be accomplished without exceeding 8G or touching the sweep controls, if you keep the turnrate in the optimal regime. Focusing on that will not only help you win ACM engagements, but will also translate to other jets and make you a better virtual pilot in general.

 

At the end of the day this is a sim, what works for you works for you, just saying there's ways about this that don't wreck the jet.

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Generally speaking, the CADC program will always give you the best wingsweep for your current speed. There's very little reason to ever mess with manual sweep as the gains are either negligible (manual back for acceleration) or potentially harmful for the aircraft (manual forward at high speed to increase instant turnrate).

 

The instruments you want to be watching is your AoA indicator and airspeed.

Proper throttle management and BFM skills will go far further than any gimmicks with flaps or wing sweep. Everything seen in the video can be accomplished without exceeding 8G or touching the sweep controls, if you keep the turnrate in the optimal regime. Focusing on that will not only help you win ACM engagements, but will also translate to other jets and make you a better virtual pilot in general.

 

At the end of the day this is a sim, what works for you works for you, just saying there's ways about this that don't wreck the jet.

 

 

Very well put. :)

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

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Does manual sweep improve accelration though? Yehnits less drsg but wont the aoa increase causing more drag? I figured the cadc takes all,of thst into consideration so i rarely mess with it

7700k @5ghz, 32gb 3200mhz ram, 2080ti, nvme drives, valve index vr

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Yeah for guns only, I'd just hit the burners and go up into outer space, the little snake can't follow you. He's only got one F-110. ;) then fall back down on him and pounce! All the Gs in the world won't help him when your going downhill on him.

 

No need to try and beat the F-16 at it's own game. No need to brake the flaps, no need to over G the air-frame.

 

What exactly is the f16s game? Rate fight? Nose position fight? Energy fight?

7700k @5ghz, 32gb 3200mhz ram, 2080ti, nvme drives, valve index vr

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Does manual sweep improve accelration though? Yehnits less drsg but wont the aoa increase causing more drag? I figured the cadc takes all,of thst into consideration so i rarely mess with it

 

That's exactly it, CADC does this for you. There might be a couple edge cases, but honestly your mind should be on other things than wing sweep.

 

 

What exactly is the f16s game? Rate fight? Nose position fight? Energy fight?

 

Against a Tomcat, probably the energy fighter. At high speed the F-16 has the better rate, at low speed it can't compete, thrust to weight is better for the F-16. As the Viper you should be taking the fight uphill and use your thrust and vertical manoeuvering to maintain a high energy state, before using the high G rating to pounce. As the Tomcat, you should be aiming to get the fight low, slow and horizontal, like how the Hornet would. You don't have his FBW so you can keep turning tighter and slower than his jet allows.

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What exactly is the f16s game? Rate fight? Nose position fight? Energy fight?

 

Radius, all day every day. In the horizontal it can out radius just about anything.

 

I’d actually go the opposite of the above strategy. At higher altitudes, the viper looses access to that high G minimum radius turning. While it does have a better thrust to weight in this scenario. The tomcat can still out accelerate it. I zoom and boom with it. Don’t get too vertical but don’t let him take the fight downstairs until you know you can kill him. Keep him nice and far away from you. Knife fighting like in that video is not necessary if you can get him early on without dumping all your energy, and getting into a one circle.


Edited by Wizard_03

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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Radius, all day every day. In the horizontal it can out radius just about anything.

 

I’d actually go the opposite of the above strategy. At higher altitudes, the viper looses access to that high G minimum radius turning. While it does have a better thrust to weight in this scenario. The tomcat can still out accelerate it. I zoom and boom with it. Don’t get too vertical but don’t let him take the fight downstairs until you know you can kill him. Keep him nice and far away from you. Knife fighting like in that video is not necessary if you can get him early on without dumping all your energy, and getting into a one circle.

 

Low radius means high rate at low speed, i thought the cat was the daddy at that?.

Whats the max (sustained) rate speed of the viper?

7700k @5ghz, 32gb 3200mhz ram, 2080ti, nvme drives, valve index vr

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Both taken at 5000 feet, standard day.

F-16C block 50, gross weight: 28,000 pounds, drag index 38 (full A2A config)

F-14B, gross weight: 60,000 pounds, 4x AIM-7, 4x AIM-9, CADC on automatic.

 

Sources: EM-charts from HFFM manual provided by "the other sim" and official F-14B performance charts (01-F14AAP-1.1).

The Viper might not be the official documentation, but given the reputation of the flight model it's close enough to give you an idea.

 

 

The Viper's sustained rate at this altitude shows as a plateau between Mach 0.8 and 0.9 (490-550 KCAS) at 8.5G. Here it sustains slightly over 15.1 deg/s

Viper's minimum radius is 1841 feet at Mach 0.35 (210 KCAS)

Viper's max instantaneous is 19.7 deg/s at Mach 0.7 (425 KCAS) pulling 8.5G.

 

The Tomcat's sustained rate spikes between Mach 0.52 and 0.6 (315-365 KCAS), peaking at roughly 16.1 deg/s (Mach 0.56. 340 KCAS).

Tomcat's minimum radius is around 1400 feet at Mach 0.26 (160 KCAS), basically landing speed.

Tomcat's max measured instantaneous rate is an eye-watering 22 deg/s at Mach 6.5G. Note that 6.5G was it's peace-time limitation, wartime limit is up at 7.5G but there is no data for this. Instantaneous rate in the sim might therefore be higher in some circumstances.

 

The higher the fight goes, the better the Viper performs comparatively to the Tomcat in sustained rate. The Viper has the better thrust-to-weight in general.

 

 

So the takeaways here are:

 

  • The Viper should keep the fight fast, prefer vertical manoeuvres to preserve energy and don't try to follow the Tomcat in horizontal bat turns.
  • Stay fast, stay high. By whatever deity you prefer, don't let the Tomcat drag you into a low-speed scissors on the deck.
  • Prefer 2C geometry and out-of-plane manoeuvring. Use that roll rate!

 

  • The Tomcat should try to bleed the Viper's energy and go for a low horizontal turning fight.
  • Don't try to beat the Viper at fast, high-G shenanigans.
  • Use that insane lifting body.


Edited by Noctrach
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Low radius means high rate at low speed, i thought the cat was the daddy at that?.

Whats the max (sustained) rate speed of the viper?

 

 

It may be, but the F-16 can transcribe a very small circle in the air WHILE maintaining energy. The F-16 pilot in that video was not maintaining energy properly. Most F-16s will know enough not to get slow with you like that. So in that particular situation; yes the tomcat can out turn the viper and get his nose around. With both jets dumped like that, it's about rating your nose. Where the high alpha tomcat can rock his world.

 

But in reality a good F-16 won't give you that chance. Their gonna keep their energy up and try to out STR you. Because that's where they have the advantage. You can roll the dice and dump your energy for a shot opportunity at any time, but that's almost never the best idea, for all sorts of reasons. IMO keeping the fight up high where your big ole wings and lifting body come into play is much safer for you. As having an Altitude and Speed advantage allows you to decide when and how the hops gonna shake out, and if you get into trouble just extended away and reset, He cannot follow you.

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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The higher the fight goes, the better the Viper performs comparatively to the Tomcat in sustained rate. The Viper has the better thrust-to-weight in general.

 

 

He may turn better up higher but that doesn't help him because he's still slower. You can still get away from him. Up past 20k to 30k.

 

 

 

So the takeaways here are:

 

 

  • The Viper should keep the fight fast, prefer vertical manoeuvres to preserve energy and don't try to follow the Tomcat in horizontal bat turns.
  • Stay fast, stay high. By whatever deity you prefer, don't let the Tomcat drag you into a low-speed scissors on the deck.
  • Prefer 2C geometry and out-of-plane manoeuvring. Use that roll rate!

 

  • The Tomcat should try to bleed the Viper's energy and go for a low horizontal turning fight.
  • Don't try to beat the Viper at fast, high-G shenanigans.
  • Use that insane lifting body.

 

I Agree with everything on this list

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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Generally speaking, the CADC program will always give you the best wingsweep for your current speed. There's very little reason to ever mess with manual sweep as the gains are either negligible (manual back for acceleration) or potentially harmful for the aircraft (manual forward at high speed to increase instant turnrate).

 

The instruments you want to be watching is your AoA indicator and airspeed.

Proper throttle management and BFM skills will go far further than any gimmicks with flaps or wing sweep. Everything seen in the video can be accomplished without exceeding 8G or touching the sweep controls, if you keep the turnrate in the optimal regime. Focusing on that will not only help you win ACM engagements, but will also translate to other jets and make you a better virtual pilot in general.

 

At the end of the day this is a sim, what works for you works for you, just saying there's ways about this that don't wreck the jet.

I'd be interested to see you do a guns match with him.

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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